Tropes vs Women in Video Games

http://boingboing.net/2016/01/20/strategic-butt-coverings-in-vi.html

For me, a valupious body plus sixy walk mod is always a good reason to play in 3rd. I also noticed that Anita Sarkeesian "emphasized" her lips with red and hair streaks.

I think she is right. However, I slightly disagree with her solution. I would not want to permanently eliminate any further view of the female posterior. Myself, I'd like to see the butts of both male and female characters. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with seeing the butts of either six.

I would like a choice in how my character is presented. If I want to a dress my male or female character modestly I would like to be able to do that. If I want to dress my male or female character provocatively I would like to be able to do that too. I dislike the idea that my choice would taken away by some kind of central committee who would decide how all characters are to be represented from now on, which seems to be what she is proposing. I think it should be left up to the player.

Buttless chaps for all characters of all genders moving forward. It's the only fair solution.

I'd just like to understand why people think exaggerated hip sway and Asian MMO-style cheap hoker outfits are attractive, because to me they just look tacky and embarrassing, not erotic.

My work blocked the site on the link, what did it say?

Yeah I think I'm with you on that.


The nuance is often lost in these conversations. Too much all or nothing.


If I think of the ideal Utopia where everyone is a feminist and no one feels unduly marginalized, I figure there's still a place for DOA Beach Volleyball. People will be objectified - it just a matter of balance.


That's the nuance I feel gets lost when Sarkeesian comes into the picture - Mario could objectify Princess Peach all he wanted if it was the exception and not the rule. The issue is more about how often women are objectified than that they are at all. (I still feel there's more to be gained in promoting positive examples in gaming than always focusing solely on the negatives.)


But yeah - on topic I think options are great. My Fallout 4 character is a woman, but I'm not running around in undies and leather chaps either. But I have that option - and that's certainly better than not playing in third-person.

Actually, now that I had time to really pay attention to the video she's got some great points. Still I think it's a matter of balance - but yes, if you want your game to be taken seriously maybe a more gender-neutral camera angle is the way to go.


Companies will always make games for T and A but at least don't pretend that's not what you're doing.


So yeah, overall I agree with Sarkeesian in this.

How do they figure that? I find it much easier to care about someone if they're attractive.

Well there's a difference between attractive and objectified...

EDIT:

(One could almost argue that feminism is about that difference - or at least it's the lack of distinction between the two that has lead to this.) Heck, just in the OP of this thread:

That's it in a nutshell right there, is it not? I don't want to put words in the OP's mouth, but the implication there is that if Sarkeesian chooses to make herself attractive that it:

1) Somehow relates to what she's saying or (even worse)

2) Undermines her talking points about objectification.

If a woman puts on some lipstick or otherwise tries to make herself attractive, that's not the same thing as doing the entire video in a severe close-up focusing on her lips from different angles, is it?

You know about the camera position thing, as new games come out more and more of them utilize the over-the-shoulder camera. That includes games with nice female bottoms that YOU CAN'T SEE. Older games, such as Tomb Raider Legends, had centered cameras because times were different, and cameras in the center of 3rd person games were the norm. Nowadays, over-the-shoulder cameras are the norm.

hey, I wouldn't mind if the male equivalent of Lara Croft, Nathan Drake, wore David Lee Roth-styled outfits of the 80's. "YANKEE ROSE!"

instead of trying to humanize women, let's oversixualize men too so it's even fielding. easier to lower that bar than raise it, that's for sure.

this is kind of like the argument that video games perpetuates violence of the 80's and 90's.

Well, I don't get the super-hip-sway thing, but..... lingerie is frequently considered attractive, as are variously revealing swimsuits and those crazy dresses that dancers wear (but then, of course, they can get taken too far. Some of the wacky stuff that shows up at the Victoria's Secret "fashion show" in November, or half the fashion shows in France ) Then there's the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheissTitillationTheory.

Of course, all of this then gets filtered through the fact that every person has different tastes. (including, but not limited to, whether people get all worked up over things like "physics" and "realism"..... things like "but that armor doesn't protect anything", "how could that even stay on?" or "how does someone run across rocky ground in high heels?" Personally, those things don't bother me, but I grew up on crazy fantasy novel covers and D&D paintings, so "Fantasy Adventure" to me includes people in irrational outfits.)

....I've found that another interesting place to observe the difference in individual views/fetishes/etc, is the varied body-shapes that show up on the Skyrim and FO4 mod sites - the advent of the Bodyslide editing tool (which lets people alter the default body mods to taste) has allowed people to parade around what they think is "sixy". Also interesting is the variety of ones that get posted with descriptions that talk about how they're "realistic, to counter all those crazy-curvy bodies out there!".... each one of them different than the last.

Waiting for Thunderf00t's follow up on this

Thanks Psy. I also looked it up when I got home. I think Tomb Raider is a bad example because Lara Croft is supposed to be a sixy girl that's nice to look at. She was designed to be that way. It's a case of "everyone listen up. I'm making a game with a sixy girl as the main character". I see nothing wrong with Lara Croft looking that way because that's how she was designed from the ground up.


If someone can't accept that I might as well get offended at the hunky guys in GQ magazine.

fyi, its the domain name that likely caused the block.. with "boingboing" in the domain name, I can easily see your companies filter settings blocking it because its mistaking it for an 18+ site..





before I engage further in this discussion, I would like a moderator to clarify something (not just for me, but anyone who may decide to post in this thread). exactly where are the boundaries when discussing this subject? I am all for talking about portrayal and representation of either gender in video games, but such discussion can quickly turn into a discussion of feminism in general which is a shaky topic in its own right, but it can even quicker turn into people spouting pure political opinion which is not a healthy forum environment by any means (and clearly against forum policy)..


so, maybe just some clarification on exactly where people need to draw the line on this particular topic? so people don't go to far and this thread become hostile?

Ahem.

http://imgur.com/juT6Ods
http://imgur.com/ASArXhu


The creature covering his man bits is a minion(non combat pet) called Nutkin.


Edit because autocorrect blows like a snow removal machine.

Do we really need a moderator's intervention for every remotely controversial discussion before anything even happens? Almost everyone currently active in CD is a regular, we already know the rules. If we can't talk civilly without someone constantly hovering over us, the forum is doomed anyway.

As if that didn't happen already. The only realistic male player character i've seen was the "fat bastard" male body replacer mod for Skyrim

Exactly. Heck in the Just Cause games the main character is a square jawed, suave GQ model with a pistol.


And I would not have it any other way.

Did she just say that the first Tomb Raider's camera showing her in third person and in the center was "her butt" is a oversixualization of something? Anyway, women are sixy as hell in games? Yes, some are (some, because sometimes the companies do exggaretes and it just looks weird) with the exception of GTA Series, I don't remember seeing a common man body in a game. It's always those six packs with that bodybuilder body.

So moderation-wise, these are always tricky. I think a certain amount of sensitivity is generally called for in topics like these if they're to stay open. If you're not going to try and understand other people in the thread there's likely to be problems. Or at least a modicum of maturity and self-awareness.


On topic, there is the difference between a power fantasy and a sixual fantasy. Nathan Drake is a male power fantasy - he's designed to appeal to male gamers and to the extent he's attractive is because that's part of the fantasy. His design is to appeal to male gamers - he's not there specifically to titilate women (and his design wouldn't be the same if he were.)


Lara Croft (especially pre-reboot) is not designed as a tool for women to live out their power fantasies.


But as I see it, the problem is focusing too much on single pieces. It's about the trope, not the game. On its own there's no reason I can't be a male feminist and still enjoy having Lara do a headstand at the top of a cliff. But by definition its a trope because its a pervasive trend.


That Lara Croft exists or that us men like to ogle butts isn't that problematic. The purpose of those videos isn't to call for the burning of old Tomb Raider games, but to raise awareness and then at least developers can make more informed decisions going forward.


If I want to make a game and be taken seriously as "high art" then that's a consideration going forward.

Which is almost complete and utter crap. If a story or gaming experiences is good enough to capture your attention, no matter what the character looks like will not affect this. In another article, in another subject, I take one specific quote and apply it here: "When did the paradigm shift that all games need to be masterful pieces of art and stop being what they truly are at their core: video games." That's what most of these things are, just games: diving into the realms of fantasy and allowing ourselves to be immersed in a different world that plays by different rules. The clothing that any character wears is there for a reason, usually because that's not what a real person would wear. While everything comes together to make a complete experience, does clothing really cheapen anything?


Secondly, if you want to talk about objectifying clothing, you ever notice that male clothing emphasizes the attractive features of men? Their butts are usually not their best feature. It's always chest, shoulders, arms (BICEPS!), neck, and hair. On top of that, their stance and mannerisms depict a "macho" attitude or a mystique that is specifically male oriented to be attractive, either blatant or subtle. Is what what men look like in everyday life? Almost never.


In both cases, I will not pretend that women generally have more attractive hips, thighs, butts and calves (and boobs) while men are supposed to have a structure that emphasizes their arms, chest, back, neck, shoulders, and abs. I can be at the office and the clothing women wear, even the basic jeans, usually is shaped to hug firmly or gently around their curves while mens clothing is typically worn to take attention away from that and put it elsewhere, or be purely focused on it. You ever hear that saying "clothes make the man"? Well, it's emphasized even more so in videogames. Just like the attraction to butts.



Also about the camera angles, almost every game has camera settings you can change. If she hasn't figured this out, maybe she should play a few more games.

This is the best video response I've seen about this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doOzjH5gjK0

In short, shes wrong.

-Catwoman looks like that because SHES ALWAYS LOOKED LIKE THAT, in some form or another, even in the comics. Catwoman's character has a history of looking that like and using her sixuality to get people off guard. That's not some trope of video games, that's her [censored] character from the comic books.

-When it comes to other characters like Lara Croft, no one is playing the game to look at her ass. I've played nearly every Tomb Raider game, and, as mediocre as most of them are, I can tell you that 99.99% of the time I, and everyone else I know who played the game, are too busy, you know, PLAYING THE GAME, to stare at her ass.

-No one is trying to hide men's asses. Men wear capes, and jackets, in video games because it looks cool, its the same reason they do it in comics. Batman doesn't have a cape to hide his ass, he has a cape because it looks badass. Men also traditionally have flatter and less defined asses as a gender. There is no conspiracy to hide men's asses in video games.

But this is Anita, she is a known liar, hypocrite, and thief. I don't know why anyone would take anything she says seriously anymore.

EDIT: Nevermind - sorry this really isn't a topic I should be taking part in here. I tell myself to stay away from these every time, but I wouldn't be on an online forum if I didn't have an elevated sense of the worthiness of my views! Just try to remember to be civil and mature with each other.