Understood most of what you said just keep us informed if you move your work to another location.

As for Vacuity's comment, I do not think it was meant in a bad way. If anything, it was a reminder of how the modding community on these forums views people's work, and encourages some order for development and intellectual credit. Don't take it as criticism, take it as information to a new modder who does not know all the rules (or guidelines)

I would hope the established community does review the "modding code" to help modders willing to take up abandoned work and improve Oblivion, which is the purpose of this forum, or so I believe.

Hang out here long enough and you will see that the community is very supportive, especially members like Vacuity (who has made some great mods).

So take a deep breath, and make streamline better. I saw another thread about this so this is not a dead issue here.

Not that I'm eager to make an ass of myself twice in on day - but I see his point.

It seems often those that really concern themselves with modders etiquette are active modders - and even then only occasionally. As I look back over the history of TES mods that I've rifled through this concern for permission and protecting the pristine visions of the mods seems to occur later in the cycle of a games existence rather than sooner. Sometimes it seems no one bats an eye when a mod is picked up and altered. Other times it is as if someone defecated on sacred ground.

I'm thinking of Frans right now and how for months the FCOM team and others said "no we can't do anything to improve FCOM installs as Fransesco is long gone and we just can't re-release without the exe." Then someone actually drags Francesco back and he is like "yeah sure do whatever you want." no one does. Apparently no one ever did want to do more. The license was just a convenience.

Then another instance with Dev_Akm who I recall being all about safeguarding the legacy and vision of OOO but then drops off the face of the earth with little to no visible to most instructions of what is to happen to it. Just dangling loose ends.

I see streamline has pretty detailed license section and made it known how to contact the author - yet when attempts are made to do so no reply is given (purportedly) - Even back when he was active it was a popular mod.

So the license seems important when the modder is active - when the modder is done it is just as the OP stated - a relic that cannot progress. And it certainly seems that for one who would put such stern license agreements that they ought to then follow through on their end and at least reply. Something.

I can imagine that the active modders will now have something to say to correct my misguided perceptions and to that all I can say is that I'm just voicing an opinion that this licensing business can serve to squash progress as easily as protect rights.

This is not a call to action - just thoughts.

Nanopolator, my advice for you is to simply re-write this from the ground up, without basing it on Streamline.

Some modders really don't care what's done with their work later; as Psymon said, Francesco was one of those. But some care very much, and from what I've heard, Jaga was like that. This community respects that -- and if we didn't, Jaga may never have stayed long enough to release Streamline in the first place, so I'm inclined to agree with the local tradition. Modders who support free open-source licensing can still allow it, but it would be foolish to drive away those who don't.

The threshold of activity here is high enough that we're thriving, and completely new "star-quality" modders still appear with completely new ideas, even though the game has been out for half a decade. Assuming that all rights perpetually remain with the original author could easily be what's kept us over that threshold. Sure, maybe not -- but why tempt fate? We don't have a tradition of people owning ideas, only the fruits of their personal work; there's nothing which prevents the re-use and re-development of ideas. So while it's not as efficient as fully open-source development, nothing else is really lost -- and again, we have people here who wouldn't stick around if this community were ruled by the GPL.

And now, a momentary hijack. Please forgive me.


You really beat this horse every chance you get, don't you? You have no clue what's going on behind the scenes, and I don't just mean because you're not privy to the private OOO development forums; you clearly don't understand how long things take sometimes (with unrelated real-world priorities frequently making it have nothing to do with the difficulty of the task), and you also don't seem to understand that not one person in this community has an actual responsibility to give you what you want, much less a deadline to do so. The brazen statement that because you haven't seen anything yet, people must have just been making excuses all along, is bitterly insulting and reeks of childish entitlement.

I'm not directly involved with the FCOM team, but I know many of the folks involved and I know that they're hard at work, and this feud is not flattering on your end. Dredging it up in unrelated threads, which I've seen you do on multiple occasions, is downright juvenile. I'm pretty sure you're cultured, educated and old enough to behave better.

What kind of response am I to give to that?

I don't want anything.

It is not every chance I get - if that were true then every new thread and every post I could make it would be there, but it is not. I've brought it up a few times before - this is true. And I've even had FCOM come and address me directly. I offered to help too and they obviously don't want that - they have made it shining clear that they do not want help with install guides. I do not expect nor want the FCOM team to improve their install methods - if they want endless threads on how to install this or that then that is what they want. If they want 4-5 different guides on installing FCOM and then berate the authors of the guides for not being as precises as they are or including some small detail that only they may be privy to then that is what they want. It all does make an interesting point of reference though especially with regard to whether Frans will be made more user friendly from an installing FCOM perspective or whether and of the rest of it from what I understand.

My point is that like with Dev disappearing it is interesting that if these things called mods are so important to some and the license means so much then why completely drop it and not even spend 5 minutes answering an essential email about permission or making a statement. It seems Dev worked on OOO for a year and a half or so then nothing for the last year and a half. Would it hurt to post 'sorry I'm gone please Mr. So and so will answer it all or here is what I wish.' Veritas did a beautiful pass off and so permissions and all that is very clear. I just would not disappear for months at a time without saying so.

You are allowed to disagree with me - and likewise from my side. Anyway I figured this would be the second time today I get corrected on my errant and incorrect thoughts - specifically the written expression of them. Modders privilege (whim) I suppose. A modder creates and therefor modder has more rights with regard to what happens and what is appropriate to say. Mod users can only use and so mod maker has all the say. Lets say nothing of the endless testing, helping others, debugging, detailed reports, creating threads to help others use tools, and hours of work it takes to get all the mods to work together. The mod maker is the authority.

I'm sure you recall very well that I asked Fran for permission to modernize it. He said yes, and plans were made - on the back burner. I've certain not forgotten about it, nor was his license just a convenient excuse. Right now I have other things I'd rather be working on than setting aside all my modding time trying to delve into the intricacies of Frans' systems in order to figure out how best to update them. Given that I spend a lot more time than some people here and that I haven't got the time to squeeze in a major rewrite to a major overhaul, I think it's pretty clear that others who have less time are doing what they can with what they have.

It's not fair to just assume none of them want to do more. I'm sure they do. I do too. Priorities have a way of creeping up and demanding attention though. Whether that be other mods, work, family, or whatever. Someone working a full time job AND raising a family can't possibly be expected to spend much time on a hobby that doesn't pay. I think that also includes Fran as well. I'm sure he had plenty of other more important things to worry about than what happened with his previous work.

I'm glad he popped up when he did, and that it got noticed, because timing is everything in these situations. Opportunity knocked, and the door was answered. You just need to give it time and be a bit more patient about it. And yes, you also need to consider the possibility that life will throw enough wrenches into things that this may be as far as it gets.

Me too I think a mod author cannot claim to care very much about his mod when in fact he just walks away and is never heard of again when the question of further development arises.

I agree he/she should take responsibilty to arrange for the aftermath especially if the mod was popular and continues to live in the community. And he should take responsibility and check his emails or whatever and reply to such requests when he said beforehand he wants to be asked. OR from the outset say in the copyright remarks "Do not change anything to this mod, do not contact me, use it as is or don't use it at all." At least that would be clear. But leaving interested modders just hanging in the air is not nice.

The new developer of course needs to put in some effort to contact the author. One email is certainly not enough. One could also ask in the community if anybody knows the author or friends of his etc. Chances are that someone will know him and a possibly alternative, informal way to contact him.

As to this particular project, whatever is going to happen, it should not be named Streamline. This struck me a bit odd right from the beginning when I saw it first pop up on Tesnexus. And Nopanolator, if you going to continue with that, I would humbly recommend or suggest to get in touch with member "SkyRanger-1" who is the author of the Oblivion Stutter Remover (OSR). It is possibly him who is the most knowledgeable person about how Oblivion the engine works and stuff. Maybe you and him could have a fruitful exchange as to some parts of the project, like maybe the implementation of the "FPS improver". I'm quite sure there is much to learn from him. Besides, over in the OSR thread he was/is always very helpful and supportive. He's not as often around as he used to but I think he is still here, maybe mostly in the Fallout forums now.

If you are going to ask us for feature requests, I'm quite certain that you will get many responses as improving the running of the game is always an issue and the old Streamline is used by many people myself included... :laugh:

I wish you good luck with this, and I would be happy to get a new, better Streamline sometimes. :tops:

Well I was making reference to a better FCOM installer method with regard to FRANS. Not at all about how to make FRANS better.

Something I could put together in less than half an hour that would greatly reduce the amount of how to thread questions. Team FCOM doesn't want to adopt BAIN even though Wrye Bash is required - OK. That I can't mention the oddity of that or make a suggestion that they do without being vilified - I dunno.

Look all - I understand that things come up - I get it. I also get that no one here works for me or anyone but themselves. Still a year and half of no contact when before it was so important undermines the whole licensing argument. Creating a license that says do not use without contacting me then not returning any contact undermines the license - I'm not saying it removes it or that it shouldn't be respected. I've had one of my email addresses for over 8 years. Plus how hard is it to log back on to nexus and post the new one or make a change to the readme or download page to saying no use period.

Sorry for smudging the air with my thought bubble - I really have no more to say except that I see the OPs point of view.

[edit] well i hope I have no more to say about this.

Sorry for continuing the OT but:

1. dev has given Team Alpha permission to continue the work on OOO and FCOM.

2. Just reading Psymons posts here, can it be surprising that the team wouldn't want him aboard? Why would we want to cooperate with someone who blasts the team at every opportunity he gets?

3. I won't even "defend" Team Alpha's stand on the points Psymon brings up as it has been covered repeatedly previously.

Erm... dev has his reasons to drop off. Yes, he clearly states that TeamFCOM is allowed to continue his work. There is no need for him to state it anywhere else and there is no need to comment on TESNexus about it.

As an example, since the last years, basically since OB was released I was on and off sporadically. For no reason than my own. I do not feel obligated to post or comment if someone asks. Why should I? Either you respect that no one is allowed to modify it or not.

I don't recall seeing the clearly states part. Why not on his FCOM websites? If it is there then I'm wrong - I've not seen it. As it is now Oscuro left the original OOO webpage up, Dev left his OOO/FCOM page up and hence there are people (the author of ROM for example) who assumed that Oscuro was no longer active and so OOO was free to build on. Likewise there are many who find the FCOM convergence pages and then are surprised that there are active threads about it on this forum (as if the world at large should know that this forum (bethesda forums btw) is the hub and central location for these overhauls.

I never claimed that he or anyone else didn't have reasons or that it was inexcusable behavior - just that if it really is so important and you really don't want things to go in a direction you don't like then what is with just walking away and leaving things vague or leaving instructions that can't be followed up on (such as contact me for permission). Of course life happens - but then it is strange to me that someone would take a project to 98% finished then walk away and leave directions like that. No one asking for a reason why - I didn't ask.

And really I don't bag on FCOM members every chance I get - just because I don't kneel down and think everything is constantly amazing all the time - just because I don't understand why they don't work to cut down on the 'FCOM is broken/How do I install FCOM' threads (http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1147064-fresh-copy-of-oblivion-fcom-bash-list-review/http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1147294-need-help-installing-wrye-bashfcom/ at the top of the forum as I write this) - none of this means that I hate FCOM or the people working on it. I like most of what it offers. I look forward to updates - I play FCOM. I've helped others play FCOM.

Is what I said really really all that negative? Certainly all I'm doing is commenting on how the licensing thing is often in contradiction to actual behavior at times.

Geez that nopanolator appeared to advocating for breaking licenses and yet here comes psymon with a few remarks that could be stretched into bagging on a favorite mod - get him :gun: what is he thinking - Mod users aren't supposed to question mod makers.

[edit] just looked at Dev's OOO and FCOM page and it seems that there is a new screenshot section http://devnull.sweetdanger.net/convergence.html, but the last update remains as 05/19/2009 at 1:13 PM so maybe there is work going on behind the scenes.
[edit 2] http://bethblog.com/index.php/2010/10/27/inside-the-vault-obsidians-jorge-salgado/ apparently Dev makes an appearance.

@ Nopanolator - Also please accept my sincere apologies for recommending you to open a thread on this site, where I believed you would be better helped with the experienced members here. This forum is usually better behaved. :facepalm:

I am sure the OP has been convinced that etiquette states that licenses are respected, come what may.

There is no issue with taking someone's idea and implementing it in a different way, and I know I'd be very happy to see a re-make of Streamline that worked even better. If it works well, I'll be more than happy to use it myself. The community has a long history of this kind of work and it's been to everyone's benefit.

All the best for the future mod, Nopanolator. I do appreciate your effort and I know you weren't familiar with the community's system of handling IP rights: I don't think anyone is angry or upset with you at this point.

Vac

Good job, guys. You just killed off an improvement to one of the most widely-used Oblivion mods in existence simply because you were worried the author would suddenly return and start raging on about an unauthorized modification to his work. What I don't understand is why you're all so worked up about licensing issues - in the end, all content made using the Construction Set is the property of Bethesda. Ergo, these rambling discussions of "permissions" are merely trifles! Furthermore, considering the disappearance of the original author (as previously stated), is there any reason to instantly take the logical offensive - as opposed to being reasonable and asking yourself whether this is truly harmful to the author's work? Someone once told me; "there are no failures in a good cause". His comment, being nonsense once applied practically, nevertheless came to my mind during this discussion - and subsequently, writing this post. How is it relevant? To be honest, I'm not entirely sure! However, this can be said with all certainty - is it truly wrong to improve the work of another? Sure, some may have their egos to stand in the way of openness, but isn't that why http://wryemusings.com/Cathedral%20vs.%20Parlor.html was written? In addition, contemplate the following - the modder had the best of intentions. Furthermore, this was no cheap hack - no "special edition" where a few values are changed for no real reason at all other than the so-called modder to have a claim for a piece of work that is, by and large, not their own - it was, instead, an overhaul of a number of different scripts - while, mind you, keeping the main portions intact. Indeed, nopanolator never claimed to be a scripting guru - in fact, he claims to be a newbie, but his work has nevertheless shown that, unlike other people, nopanolator wanted to do something solid, concrete, and useful - an addition to one of the most useful Oblivion mods ever made.
And now? All that has been thrown away. While we may, some day in the far future, see his new and rewritten optimisation mod emerge from the swamp of promises, there's a fair chance that we may never see him again - lost in the depths of time, burned due to the calloused reactions of the ones who likely think themselves righteous. For all we know, we may have suffered a great loss this day - perhaps, unhindered, nopanolator may have turned out to be one of the greatest modders of the generation - but all that is no more. May we hang our heads in shame for what has happened on this fine day.
Melodramatic? Me? Nonsense!

Dev_Akm did disappear without giving permissions to anyone to allow them to do anything with FCOM or OOO and he ignored any email sent to him. I know this because that is what team members that are working with FCOM said when I asked about newer versions of FCOM. If he finally responded and gave permissions then I am happy buy it doesn't really seem like he cared about it since he ignored all attempted communications for well over a year. How can people give respect for people and there work when they don't even respect their own work enough to take a minute to respond to an email inquiring about permissions related to said work. The author created it and cared for it and then just threw it away just like a mother throwing away their own child. If a mother threw away their own child they wouldn't have rights to it anymore so why should an author that threw away their own creation have any rights over said creation anymore. I don't believe they should and no document saying don't touch this would stop a person from taking care of an abandoned child so shouldn't work for an abandoned creation.

Taking other's work and claiming as your own is not a good thing.
It is not a "legal" matter, but an "ethics" matter. If someone want to take over a work made by someone else, he must ask permission. If the original modder disappeared, it is another thing.
Keep in mind that with the new Nexus rules you can be banned for bringing material from other sources (mods included) without having the permission (If it is not true, then I misunderstood).
On the other hand, if the original creator of Streamline is disappeared, then people should consider emailing him. If he does not answer within some time, then you should consider a positive answer. Lots of people do this.

Well, more Quad Core and 3GB configuration than i planned on the vote, interresting. Like the turn of the debate too. It's funny for the lunch time.

Don't be sorry alt3rn1ty, i discover another side of the "play with mods" thing and i take it with humor and philosophy. It's an additionnal knowledge after all. Somes must experience what is the development in an enterprise, they will be hardly suprised.
note : my mention of Vacuity was friendly and in the tone of the humor, i have quickly understanded than he represented a shared volontee of a certain type of modders. I don't want to debate on abstract things wich go nowhere, and he prevented it.

You point on a valid point Psymon, it's than the "virtually copyrighted" modders want a lot but without to organize them suffisciently for be at the height of theyr exigences. In the business, we use tools wich are called "CRM", the ancestor of facebook if you want. This CRM permit to update every 6 months the licenses, to update the contact, brging new contracts etc... but i think it's a little "too much" for just play with a game and enjoy the right to modify it freely. After all, Bethesda don't ask to the modders community theyr explicit permission for each mod. It will be crazy. The FCOM was a good anology by the way.

Hy tejon, just one point when you say "Nanopolator, my advice for you is to simply re-write this from the ground up, without basing it on Streamline." Have you opened (copyrighted)311 in TESCS and compared it with Streamline 3.1 "Open"(lol) Beta, before to say that? I don't think.
And i repeat for clearing this famous mythical ground, i'm a beginner at it and it's my first mod so i need a support for to learn. Like all beginners a day on any code. The fact than i'm honest and frank with it isn't a good reason for to forget this simple reality. Your advise can't be followed, because it's unreal. For to image it, the first modder of oblivion was in the necessity to open a bethesda's esp for to understand how it work. I'm not against to preserve the aura of somes wich have each invented Oblivion, but not for to put me in this madness. On this part of the debate, the sincerity is a responsability for the ones wich want to learn how to code a first mod. If they don't want take centuries for to have something, they must choose a starting point and be tenacious with it; the creativity come in quickly. Wait a little, and the code shall have nothing in common with the original... because it's the declared goal, my own wish.

Now, i have viewved somes threads on differents forums on the question and the same point is getting out, always : make my publicity with my mod on my work.

If you play your life in modding something, you're simply far from a hard reality. You have better to register you on a true school wich form Level designer, project manager, 3D modelers... etc, and invest hard in it because the competition have nothing to have with a simple quest of reputation. By the way you must multiply the stages in videogame's company for to build a true credibility. I'm not in the game's side, but i can see everyday a similar world with products like Lotus, Websphere, and somes others. The anology is not hard to do, because it's all about the code. Now i have an example in head, wich surf on the Oblivion's subject : Mount & Blade. For the most tenacious and motivated, try to digg the story of this game and learn from it... if it exist a way for the ones wich can't access to a professionnal formation, it's this one.

Mount and Blade rules! I love that game and love it modded.

I'm not a modder (duh) but all the tenacity toward license and permission makes me wonder how many are using mods as a resume builder and don't want their mods upstaged? I dunno. But I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees blind adherence to it as funny.

And I'm sorry if people were hurt or offended by anything I wrote above. Inconsistency seems the order of the day with license/permission - that is all I was pointing at. Why team FCOM stands in denial of Dev's departure and on one hand claim he gave them permission (that I've not seen other than he was working with them) and on the other their tenacity to place others in check with the license issue (ROM for instance) or even weirder come down on people for writing 3rd party install manuals ... all seems well - inconsistent.

If I'm an advocate for anything it is getting are shared experience of this game working - not just for me ... but yeah for me too.

For those that missed it, I'd like to refer people to http://wryemusings.com/Cathedral%20vs.%20Parlor.html. This is, in fact, something that hits this discussion close to home - the things it describes have happened many times before, and will likely happen many times in future. However, we must not go blindly into the future! Surely, respect should be given where earned (and, indeed, respect should be earned - not granted - but that is outside the scope of this discussion), and dues must be paid, but why should one person have a supreme right to what they open to the public? That's a bad thing - I mean, sure, you might think they have the right to do it, but why should one person have the ability to go "Here's something awesome - NOW GIVE IT BACK I DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE IT ANYMORE" to everyone? Us humans can be asses quite a bit, but we shouldn't let that stand in the way of social progress! "More rambling!", you say? Not quite.

Now, of course, most people will automatically fall onto the "it is the creator's supreme right to revoke what they have given" side of things, thinking it to be morally correct. Unfortunately, this is wrong - morals are, indeed, quite relative - and even so, agreeing to such a thing would make most people hypocrites. Just look on this very site - the sheer number of people whining about Fallout: New Vegas using Steam. Some would argue that their complaints are very well founded - "we should be able to do what we want with what we have!". And thus, the argument comes full circle.

To quote the argument someone used earlier - is it the right of the abusive parent to snatch their child back from protective care? Some would argue yes - some, no. Indeed, it is impossible for us to refrain from being hypocrites - and thus, is why we try to go over things on a case-by-case basis. And yet! People are still biased, and therefore, will generally argue on one side of the argument for some matters and on the other side for a few other things. For truly - what man does not desire to be looked upon as the "white knight"? What man would not relish the chance to climb upon a mountain top and yell "I am morally superior to you!"? Oh, wait, this isn't a discussion about religion. Nevermind!

In conclusion, preaching about "rights" and "morals" will get you nowhere. Should we be confined to one tiny corner of an open room just because the big man in the shiny suit says so? Well, when out that way - of course not? But would YOU confine a man in a shiny suit to a corner of a room? While the relevance of shiny men in suits to this topic requires further investigation, I believe I have found the perfect fuel for this discussion for the next five pages! Let us argue about the sociological implications of a device designed to improve performance in a six year old game, and worry not about the world outside passing us by! For what else is there to gain from argument but glory?

Dear All
Please do not let us bring up the FCOM situation all the time. FCOM is FCOM and they have to be comfortable as to the satisfaction of IP concerns and having the right to keep developing the mod or not. Whether Dev_akm gave it to them privately, officially, on the phone, by email, by ghostly apparition in a dream, or not at all must not be of concern to us on the outside.

If we want to discuss the subject of handling the ethics of mod reuse or not, we should keep it abstract. At least this will keep all hatred out, IMHO.

Isn't the question: We have an idea. We poke around. We find a mod that does something similar. We have made good, sincere effort to contact the author for his permission to continue development. We never hear anything from him. Now what:

-A- Copy / paste the useful stuff as much as possible into the own mod?
-B- Do nothing with the original mod, do not not even look in CS wherever how it is built?
-C- Do open it, understand how it's done, take those (coding) parts than cannot be improved upon while reworking the parts where new tools (e.g. better OBSE) became available and/or better coding ideas can be thought of?

I say C). A) is clearly unethical. It's not illegal but clearly it's not the way we (me) want it. To do -B- is an utter waste of time and is in total contradiction of human technical and intellectual development over the last 50.000 years or so. So some sort of C) is the prudent and reasonable course to follow as far as I am concerned.

Just thought I would highlight that the ownership discussion seems to have ended a promising project

Not gonna comment on this huge mess involving FCOM as I have absolutely no idea what it's all about (nor do I want to know). I can understand how it got brought up but why on earth did the entire discussion suddenly revolve around that! (and not in an abstract way like Tommy_H suggests) :wacko:

The initial post made by tejon was valid (IMHO), I too haven't looked at the actual esp so I don't know how much was copied and how much was written from scratch. What I do know is that it uses the same name/terms/everything-else. Even if no code was used from the original Streamline this still suggests you are continuing it directly instead of a new mod which does the same/similar and more. Ofcourse not all modders would frown on doing it that way but I guarentee you that if you pick a new name most will be okay with it.

Yes, it is a bit hard to say you can't use a specific name but as I mentioned, using the name suggests a passing-along-the-torch situation between you and Jaga. Which, as far as I can tell (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't that case. Just my advice (hopefully without a huge discussion....).

As for having stopped the project, that saddens me somewhat. Yes, I disliked the way it was presented as a direct update to Streamline but I did like the new additions.

P.S. The meaning of "Open Beta" isn't that everyone may use the code and release their own custom version, it means everyone may try/use/distribute the beta (the last bit is arguable though). If it had been a "Closed Beta" then the testers wouldn't be allowed to share the original package with 'public users' without permission from the modder-in-question.

-kyoma

Seems the OP has stopped the project and thus there is no need for further discussion.