Why ignore the first part? :whistling: The point of that was a paper map is sufficient. Why the heck even waste time making such a thing as a 3d map? The fact that the paper map is more realistic is an added bonus.



Style over substance is not really a good factor for menu design. The simplest explanation is some dreamy-eyed artist thought up the perks/constellation idea and they ramrodded the menu around that idea. Not a bad idea or flow for 8-10 constellations or less...but even the reduced 18 skills....no...too many items for the layout....



I know. Which is why I am amazed that it looks like they may have created a turd that might be even worse. I mean, an alphabetized list with gigantic pictures of single items at a time? :banghead: It is literally so bad that they created a duplicate quick menu to get around it.


I don't. Drawing a diagram of the attributes/skills/attributable effects interactions is easy. It is very simple and elegant. It is an actual streamlined character design that allows for unlimited depth. You can add multiple attributes. Add skills and quickly link them to various character traits. While there may be more to it than what information has been released it seems that what they created for SR is to be a hodgepodge of unlinked items. I think it is the underlying reason why we are seeing less skills and not more. This is not streamlining. It is the loss of functionality that is the result of the exact opposite of streamlining.

Skyrim is a game for people who play ALOT of games made by people who love alot of games.

Streamlining is all about the people who love alot of games but dont know it yet.

Very good. F03 needed a different approach entirely and had to be handled carefully. I found it a refreshing change compared to the older games but many of the "core fanbase" despise it and will not play fallout anymore. You highlight an excellent point in that it was developed from and independant vision. I think that is something that Bethesda has lost and it strongly reflects in the current gameplay design. There is truly no risk taking in that development portion and everything is following tried and true formulas that sell. Unfortunately those formulas are overused stagnant bloated corpses. I just feel they should train the talent at the company to take a bit more risk and focus on the "gameplay" portion and make it just as creative as the worlds that they build.

Until you specify what makes the previous map more "sufficient", then the word remains nothing more than a subjective term. As I said about your reference to "realism", that is an entirely different matter from streamlining, and something I altogether agree with you on.




Maybe so. Its not always a bad thing to go with something that is more appealing to the eye, because if pulled off well, it could make going through the menu more of a pleasant experience. As I said, it remains to be seen how well this turns out to work.




See my answer above this.



As you seem to agree, there is more to be revealed about how well this all works and how much depth it truly has in comparison to the previous system, so I can't really say too much to this. So far, it seems better, but I'm reserving final judgment until I play the game.

Do you believe in Bethesda game studio?

No, not at all. This shouldn't be viewed as a slight against Bethesda. I simply do not have any trust, faith or belief in game developers at all.

Is Skyrim going to be the best TES installment to date?

Objectively, quite possibly yes. Subjectively, most likely no.

Do you think Bethesda has the right to re-imagine every TES game

Absolutely, they can do whatever they want to the game. My choice will be whether to buy it or not.
- - - - -

I'm not sure what to think re streamlining vs maximising. I do think that a number of concepts are being simplified/removed in order to make the game more understandable/appealing (however you wish to think of it) to gamers that don't have lots of experience with RPGs or lack the time/patience to learn, preferring things to be intuitive or heavily directed. For me, as an experienced gamer this is somewhat bad, though seemingly common in recent years. It has the potential to make the game boring for me and as a result I buy fewer AAA games these days.

My main reason for having doubts for TES5 is decreased number of Attributes
Previous system made sense
This? I don't know, reminds Diablo too much for me.
Because I don't buy this whole middleman argument
For God's sake the whole game is one big middleman
So, should we remove game itself and get "You are winner" sticker instead?

Regarding menus
They should be as compact as possible, so that with one or two button pushes, you could evaluate everything (inventory, character, whatever)
Current GUI looks too visual and not functional enough
Why something like this worked in FO3/FO:NV? Because it looked like actual piece of hardware attached to your hand ("imurshn" ladies and gentlemen, "imurshn"- I hate writing immersion like that, yet, I find this word funny, so bite me).
So, dear developers, less gimmicky and more functional GUI is needed

Regarding map
Do we have our own personal spy sat somewhere over Skyrim, or what?
If they want 3D map it could be done better
My advice is to make this map to resemble enchanted parchment, so that it could actually show landscape form, but with decreased colors (I don't know how to described it better, I have visual representation in my head, but can't attach right words to describe it)

Regarding horses
Why the hell are they needed at all? World size is so tiny, that you can travel on foot just a little slower than on horse, but your combat ready at all time
For horses to work we should have at least 5 times larger game world and mounted combat
Currently there is nothing of that present in the game, so once again my character will be foot traveler
One thing that could justify horses in the game if developers would allow NPCs fight from horseback, so that you would have skirmishes against such NPCs
Or maybe allow players to trample opponents with horse hooves instead of attacking (in this case player would have some way to retaliate against potential threats, while on horseback)- of course with possibility to improve horsheshoes material (daedric horsheshoes ).
For example- pressing button for using right hand makes horse to attack with frontal hooves, while left hand button makes horse to kick with rear hooves (in case someone is chasing you)
Because at this point they simply look as visually improved version of TES4 horses, but functionally they remain the same. This must be changed.

Those are my few cents regarding current TES5 problems
As usually anyone can ignore them

What are the "tried and true" gameplay design formulas you are speaking of?

What's your point? It is subjectivity that is easily made objective with a little common sense and less parsing.



Creating a menu that is nice looking the first few times you look at it only to be a complete waste of time the hundreds of times you look at it afterwards is a very bad design flaw. Design for functionality first and foremost. Design for taste and aesthetics second. As OB should have taught them, "unstreamlined" menus can cause a lot of headaches.



See mine. :homestar:



I'd rather cast doubt now and be pleasantly surprised if I am wrong,,, :thumbsup:

I know Morrowind was Beths first step into the Mainstream Market, thats my point, it sold well, didnt sacrifice a thing and kept it all introverted as far as developement is concerned. Daggerfall to MW Transition was.....yes stuff was lost but its new tech no? and aside from flails the weapon variety was great, the world still had things going on and over all the game presented itself excellently. to this day slap on a graphics overhaul some quests mods here and their and you go to town.


yes Morrowinds Combat is Bs


when Oblivion came, all that went out the window, the lore, the story, the people, and its funny where Morrowind didnt have written accounts of the experience, Cyrodiil did, and Beth Crapped ALLL over that, not a tinge was used its sad when the Pocket guide of the empire is more interesting than disney Oblivion. now Skyrim has the same advantage, its not written about to the extent Cyrodiil is so they can go to town.


and thats the thing Im focusing on, they'd be better off just making the game instead of "trying to attract a wider audience" the hell are you deliberately trying to garner more people for? out of the kindness of your hearts? no sorry all i see is to line their pockets, people come naturally and if the game kicks ass more will come, but when your trying to gild it with "what sells" that luster quickly diminishes, for me it happened with Oblivion and if it werent for mods that game would have been shelved no more than 3 months after I got it.


I pray Skyrim doesnt follow the same Philosophy. and where people are getting this faulty math that 3 bars and perks of which by no garuntee (on the contrary fully evident) that they are each and every one absolutely game changing and unique = infinite playstyles or possibilities.

My point? You just said the previous one was "sufficient". I'm saying that this is your opinion. Its not a matter of "common sense" until we have enough evidence to prove that your "sense" about the map is really all that "common" when people have actually tried it out in the game for a while. Neither you nor I know whether or not the 3D map will work better and be more convenient than the previous one, and thats what I'm waiting to find out.



I fully agree with you. I'm just stating what might have been the motivations of Bethesda's choices here. I learned to accept the previous menu system, and I'm sure that I can learn to accept this one. To be honest, I've yet to find a menu system in any of the TES games that was so bad that it affected my opinion of the game overall. OB was annoying after a while, but it didn't put a dent into my affection for the game. In order for Skyrim's menu to really piss me off, it would have to really hamper my gameplay, and take me too much out of the game itself. Like I said, we'll just have to see how it works out.



I

Sounds like a plan. :wink_smile:

Up to a point, yes. Despite my disappointment with some of their decisions, I find that Bethesda is still one of the best developers out there.


Basing my speculation on a few of the choices they've made, I doubt it will top Morrowind as my favorite game of all time. I have no doubt that it will be in my top five favorite, and may even be in my top three. I'd have to play it to give any informed opinion, though.


Absolutely. It's their baby, so they have the right to do whatever they wish. However, I personally wish that there were more continuity from one game to the next. I don't really care much for the 'reinvent the wheel' philosophy they have with regard to making each new installment. I'd rather that they decide on a direction / foundation and build upon it. I think that they've taken two steps forward and one step back since Daggerfall. It's not that I can't deal with change, it's only that I think change should be made in order to make something better, not just for the sake of making something different.

Perks for starters. It is really just a whitewash of the old attribute system. The same concepts are there it is really just a barrier used to restrict and give the false impression of impactful choice and consequence everyone wants to [censored] about. It is also a copy and paste from other games of the "Rpg" genre.

Marriage,Relationships,Side jobs, the new magicka aspects. These are all Copy and pasted from others games and from a developer standpoint admiteddly so. They are all taken from greater and lesser games (mostly lesser) and from the Mod community. And why not those games sell and generally follow the same formula. So why risk making something creative?

Streamlining is not always a bad thing if you are talking about actually making things less complicated but not less difficult. But, If you are talking about the "streamlining" that took place in Dragon Age 2 (cutting content because of only 8 months of development time) then it would ruin Skyrim.

The game maker rested that night, the night after finishing the game he'd been working on for four years, and so he did what he never does, he slept in, til the sun opened his eyes for him. The week following was euphoric to say the least for the game was selling well, which was an understatement, it had practically been flying off the shelf. The game maker sat through numerous meetings and had countless conversations about the future of the series. Based on predictions they were going to have a wide profit margin and would be able to invest much more into the next game. The possibilities of what could be done swam sporadically through his mind and became his crutch for the next few weeks. When it was time to come and start working on the new title he had a new air of confidence, he knew what he had to do. He knew just who he had to please and he knew just how to do it. And so he went about the office with guidelines for each cubicle. It was simple in his mind, you don't cut anything, you just make it better.

At the first round table he came down on the division heads like lightning, setting an example that would flow on through to completion. His first words, "There shall be five division's. Sorry Jan, you're the odd man out, we're sticking with text fields, pack your things and leave. As for the rest of you. Frank, you will be in charge of writing tens of thousands of lines of dialogue consisting of NPC's giving directions to the player. Detailed directions mind you! I want every damn possible combination of town to quest directions you can think of."

"But there aren't any quests yet."

"Yes. True. Well, refer to the pocket guide for now. We'll work in a system for getting you in on the ground floor for quest development, not only will you be writing the directions, but those very directions shall be pivotal to how the quest's fold out."

"Okay..."

The game maker presses a button on the table, "Sammy. Get Jan back in here please."

Out of the speaker phone, "Yes sir!"

"Okay. Now. John. You will be in charge of animations. I want you to report home immediately and watch every Pixar film in existence. When you're done I want you to work on making every NPC and creature in the world have animations as good or better. Keep in mind there's going to be infinite combinations of armor. Got that"

"Uh.... Well, I'm not completely sure... Wait... How much time do I have?"

"As much time as you want. This game isn't going to be released for fifteen years. And I suspect there will be delays."

At this time Jan walks back in, here disposition broken.

"Jan! First of all, you're not fired anymore. Second of all, you will be working on a system to get Frank in on the ground floor of quest development."

Jan looks dumbfounded and utters, "Who's doing quest development?"

"Good question. Allison!"

"Yes boss!"

"You are going to compile a list of ancient literary novel's, at least four-hundred or so. I want you to read them all three times and then come in immediately afterwards to start working on the greatest quest lines ever to be told in polygons. That reminds me." He pushes the button again, "Sammy!"

"Yes sir!"

"I want you to call Microsoft and Sony and tell them we are no longer producing games for their impractical little consoles. Make sure that at the end of each conversation you hold the phone to your butt and fart loud enough for them to hear. I want you to fart twice after the Sony conversation."

"Roger that Captain!"

Allison raises her hand. The game maker motions for her to speak. She says, "do you think, perhaps, we might think about hiring on someone who's already done something, like read all those old books and things. I only ask because I'm usually in charge of sound."

"Absolutely not! We won't be expanding the business in any way. We will work with the same people we've been working with. We will get paid the same we've been getting paid. We will cater to the people that will eventually make the biggest deal of things if we F up. Understood?"

"Yeah. Got it, I guess I'm off to the library."

"That's the spirit!" The game maker's right foot finds it's way onto his chair. His hands rest on his hips. He takes a deep breath, letting his chest distend to it's largest state. He holds his breath for longer than is necessary and an uneasy tension fills the room like boiling hot water. He let's it out. "Shoot! Where was I?"

Everyone stares back blankly.

"Seriously folks. Where was I?"

A freakishly tall Asian man in the back stands up, towering over the conference table. "You were explaining how we will be proud and fulfill the wishes of those who love individual skills."

"Yao Ming. Just the fellow I was going to pick next. Your job will be to oversee the other division's. If you decide Frank, John, Allison, Jan, or even myself are straying from the guidelines you have permission to beat me or that person senseless, with these wooden spanking paddles. Also, until we have screenshot's, which we will post every other day, we will post pictures of all the division heads, in their chairs, working, from Ming's perspective. I want the fans to see just how small you all are. Like insects that are only alive for forty-eight hours. Worthless. Valueless. I want them to see your balding heads. I want them to fell like they are above you, looking down, overseeing your every move. Does everybody understand?"

There are ambiguous nods and stiff neck cracks. Frank on the other hand stands up and asks, "and what are you going to be doing this whole time?"

"Simple. I'm going to sign up for the official forums under the name Game Maker. I'm then going to spend the duration of development svckling the behind of each and every fan. I want them to feel me where it counts. My devotion to the game is second only to my devotion to that group of ardent individuals. Each of them leagues upon leagues smarter than I, better looking too. I want them to look down upon me as well and the only thing I want them to flame about is, who has the tightest grip around my neck." Just then the game maker b-lines for the window and jumps through it, shooting glass outward into the winter air. The other's in the room race over to watch their boss catch flight and blast off into the cloudy sky.

"He can fly?"

"Apparently so... I hear he can sing too."

"And dance"

"And he feeds the homeless."

"Oh, not only that. He is homeless."

Everyone, "Wow!"

Sammy comes in through the speaker, "hey all. The boss wanted me to tell you all to get to work. So yeah.... good luck." They all look over at Ming, grasping the paddle in one hand and patting his other hand gently. Perfectly on beat the limp lazily from the conference room.

Whenever a company does something someone doesn't like they call it dumbing down. There is a grand conspiracy to cater to this imaginary crowd of gamers who hate challenges.

On the other hand, whenever a comapny dumbs things down they call it streamlining.
They call improvements improvements, but negative things need to have a positive spin these days.
It really is no different from calling tbc consumption.

Psh, useless post, people can't fly!

No, I actually thought it was pretty creative. Can't have everything, lol.

This discussion confuses me. Not the discussion that has been had before about whether or not Skyrim is "streamlining" or "simplifying" or "cutting because [censored] you that's why". That discussion has been had. I am confused because people still think opinion is fact. But, hey it's a discussion forum, and who am I to try to stop that.

HAVE AT IT!

These "negative things" depends on who you talk to. I'd call removing perks and adding attributes dumbing down but someone might feel different I suppose. :whistling:

I support BGS in that I think they are doing things right. Do I know that they are, no I don't, but I'm not going to bash them on every dicision that I may not agree with or understand. BGS have built up enough respect from me to trust them to make a great game.

Biased poll is biased. I think Oblivion is the best TES game. Problem? :shifty:

Actually, I think Bethesda's interest is replacing their core fan base with a bigger fan base that doesn't even like RPG's. No longer is it about making the best RPG they can, it's about selling as many copies as possible and to hell with the core fan base who made this game as popular as it is.

Oblivion and Skyrim wouldn't have been possible without the core fan base of Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind.

It's obvious that they want a more simplistic game that the average Joe playing COD can pick up and play without any knowledge of an RPG. That to me is a disgrace to RPG's and to the TES Franchise.

This is why I say that I have lost faith in Todd and the dev team. They have forgotton what TES was all about and obviously don't care. All they see are the $$$$ they can bring in from the people who don't give 2 craps about RPG's.

Do you believe in Bethesda game studio?

Moreso than a lot of other developers out there... but they do seem to be taking the wrong direction with Skyrim.

Is Skyrim going to be the best TES installment to date?

For me? Very unlikely.

-For people mostly interested in the RPG side of things? Very unlikely with all the streamlining and dumbing down.
-For people mostly interested in the open-world side of things? Fairly unlikely with all the hand-holding and slightly more linear approach, although some things have improved.
-For people who prefer action-adventure games to open-world RPGs? Most likely.
-For people interested in more linear, 3rd person action-RPGs? Most likely.
-For people who consider polish and performance to be higher priorities than player freedom? Most likely.

Do you think Bethesda has the right to re-imagine every TES game

It's their series, they can do whatever they want. :confused:

Bethesda is making a lot of changes. Some of them make me uncomfortable. Attributes. I like the numbers that tell me exactly how strong, smart, etc... my character is, and I really don't see how I'll get that information from perks and three stat bars. I'm afraid that something will be lost. It still seems to me that races have become more stereotyped; because there are no attributes to raise, an Orc will always be stronger than a Bosmer, simply because of race. Again, I'm worried that something will be lost. With birthsigns gone, so goes my Atronach characters, which were my favorite mages. I still don't see how the spells in Skyrim will have as much flexibility without being able to customize them through spellmaking. Just being able to use them in two hands and combine them doesn't seem enough to make up for the loss. I still think spellmaking creates more variables, more possibilites.

These things, and others, have me concerned. Bethesda is walking a fine line. I won't be able to pass judgement until I get the game, and get into the meat of it, and see for myself what the possibilities are. Truth is, there's a lot in Skyrim that I like... the art direction is fantastic. The open world is there, the whole structure of an Elder Scrolls game is there. It's just the mechanics that I'm, well, worried about. Hopefully the chances that they're taking will pay off. They see the whole game, and I just see fragments.

I'll wait until I play the game before I pass judgement.

Improving and making better while staying true to the game world is not impossible. Rather than look at continuity as some impossible and irrational concept that can't possibly be met I'd hope the devs were open-minded enough to see it as simply a starting point. It's not like the things many fans are clamoring over are brand new.

Very interesting. Now if you ever find somebody that would actually argue for that........