Here you go! http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/061/2/3/the_return_of_ysgramor_by_theoldyebard-d4rjh3x.jpg

True, and since both probably happened in the Merethic Era we dont' know the exact time between the Return and the Dragon War. But I still find it an interesting factor, when comparing the resounding success of the Five Hundred Companions with the failure of the Nords to defeat the Dragons and Dragon Cult before Kyne intervened.

Indeed. I actually suspect the Dragon cultists were thu'um users in their own right, taught by their Dragon Overlords. Perhaps even by Paarthurnax himself before his change of heart. The proficient use of the Thu'um by the many Draugr from Warriors(Wight Lords) to the legends and heroes of the cult(Deathlords) are all competent Thu'um users.

I think what really gave the Cult the advantage was the amount of Dragons on their side vs the few dragons on the Rebels side. The odds were in favor for the cult. I believe the cult's biggest setback was the loss of Miraak, and his change of allegiance to Hermeus Mora. He turned renegade and the cult had to allocate resources and Dragons to track him down in Solstheim. Of course, he had an agenda of his own separate from the rebels.

I'm not 100% sure how Kyne fits in exactly in this regard. I like to think she convinced Paarthurnax to rebel against Alduin. I speculate the whole thing about her giving mortals the ability to shout was metaphorical since Paarthurnax is said to have actually taught the Rebels how to shout. Can't say for certain though, due to the obscure information we have available.

Apparently the shrine says

Kyne called on Paarthurnax, who pitied Man

Together they taught Men to use the Voice

Then Dragon War raged, Dragon against Tongue

I figure Paarthurnax probably, like you said, actually taught the Nords how to shout, hence why Kyne needed his help.

Less interesting, though. I prefer taking that "Together" at face value.

Edit: wrong topic.

The human body by itself doesn't seem to be able to withstand the power of the Thu'um. Even Wulfharth's (Now supposedly a dragonborn) throat began to bleed during his bout with Nerevar according to sermon nine, and along with the Greybeards, can no longer speak without blowing stuff up. Perhaps Kyne's hand in it was giving the Nords the ability to actually harness the Thu'um without dying.

Perhaps. The lore is a bit contradictory though. Before Skyrim, it seemed the more powerful you were the less control you had over devastation, with Wulfharth being gagged and having to sign into office and the Greybeard's also being gagged (although still only Arngeir can speak) Now with Skyrim, it seems Thu'um masters are ones who can control the force of their voice. Like Arngeir, Miraak and the Dragonborn.

I really have to wonder about Arngeir though. He's rather hot-blooded in compared to the others, and one of the other Greybeards more or less orders him to stand down in regards to protecting Paarthurnax. Between the fact that I can't find any proof that he is the grandmaster, I think it stands to reason that hes the lesser one among them, and thus is the one who acts as a intermediary to anyone speaking with the Greybeards.

Miraak was probably among the first mortals to actually start shouting like a dragon, and was more obsessed with controlling others as opposed to using the Thu'um. And the Dragonborn is, well, still rather new at the whole thing in comparison.

Ulfric, speaking of Arngeir: "Yes. The oldest and most powerful [of the Greybeards], although he may not seem so."

The point of the Dragonborn's though, is their mastery of the Thu'um without effort or study. Miraak is supposed to be very powerful shouter. He'd have to be with the knowledge Mora gave him. For what it's worth, Arngeir's level in the game is also significantly higher than the other Greybeards.

Thu'um mastery just seem to include more control now, not less.

Welp, there goes that idea.

The only thing Miraak supposedly wanted from Mora to begin with was the Bend Will shout. Granted, Dragon Aspect is probably of his own invention was (Since what use would it be to a dragon) during his tenure in Apocrypha.

Yeah..it seems like one of those uniquely mortal Shouts, like Dragonrend and the four word shout specifically engineered to one shot Dragons.

Not really.. the only thing we know is that he wanted more power. Bend Will is supposedly his major calling card but I'd like to imagine that get got more than one shout from Mora during his thousands of years in Apocrypha. Miraak maybe made Dragon Aspect, but I'd also like to think that Dragon Aspect is something Septim used to be looked upon as a dragon.

I'd prefer to think the Nords saw him as a Dragon simply because that's the vibe his soul gave off, and the Nords were still much more spiritual and connected to their ancestral gods like Kyne back then. But that works too, I guess.

Yeah, he's level 150. Miraak's max level is also 150.

It's possible that Septim discovered the shout for his own, but I doubt it.

I'm inclined to believe Dragon Aspect is indeed Miraak's creation. I mean look at the translation of the word walls:

Miraak waz h3re

lol, pretty much.

Mastery and strength are not nessesarily the same thing. If I had just got my drivers license and my dad bought me a ford GT I'd have a powerful car but it wouldn't make me a master driver. It could be the same principal with the thu'um: you could have a very strong voice but it wouldn't make you a thu'm master, that takes time and practice. Arngeir clearely has a powerful voice and has put in eough houres to master and contol it

Wasn't the last word of the shout in Mora's realm too?

Who says they are not in this context? Car anology is bad. The only reason why the Dragonborn's shouts seem tame is because of game restrictions. What mastery does Miraak and the LDB lack? They can control it and they can instantly use a shout without training if they have the knowledge.

Sorry I didn't explain my point very well. I was saying that a possible explanation for wultharth's trouble controlling his thu'um is that he was born with a powerful voice and didn't spent the decades of training nessassary to master it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the strength of one's thu'um was inborn and unalterable, like one's metabolic rate. The stronger your thu'um the harder it is to control but it can still be done with enough practice. This is all pure speculation on my part as there are no lore sources to back it up but I think it would explain quite alot. I didn't mention the dragonborns as they are the exeption to basically all rules of Thu'um

He ate soup with a fork, I am pretty sure he could kick the Dovahkiin's ass with his shield in one hand and his two handed axe in the other hand.

Its like super saiyans, and super saiyan 2.

The master tongues were so powerful that they cant speak due to their voices being so powerful. Master thu'umers (super saiyan 2's) have the same power but more control.

In other words, multiple levels of mastery.

Yes actually. So Tiber using the shout is 90% unlikely. There is zero evidence of him ever associating with Hermaues Mora.