Hmm, I'll admit I did not realize that the meshes were named. At the same time, it contradicts how Cosmology described how the moons were not represented. Perhaps they were implemented when the Orrery was rebuilt. And it would explain how Arkay never disappeared behind Magnus.

But it doesn't explain Magnus, or its relation to Nirn. As far as we know, Nirn could still orbit Magnus and the model would remain sound. If nothing else was observed orbiting Magnus, then the Nirn-centered theory would work fine, even for the Dwemer.

I've wondered if the Serpent's movement could be correctly modeled by casting the components as other bodies orbiting Nirn.

They weren't represented on the Dwemer Orrery in previous games, which is what most of the info available is based on. The named meshes on the Oblivion orrery is info that's quite new to me as well.

My assumption that Magnus is fixed and equidistant from Nirn, comes out of lore, which states that the stars are fixed in their position and equidistant from Nirn. Magnus is a star, or a tear in Oblivion, just like any other. It just happens to be the largest, so I would assume it follows the same path as the other stars. I'm using http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/cosmology.shtml as my main source, since it's the only definite info out there. Because the stars are referred to as "The Firmament", we can probably assume a medieval model for the cosmology of Nirn. That would likely be the Platonic cosmological model, which is Earth centric. I believe that the devs based their own Cosmology on this model, and stated lore seems to confirm that.

So, if the stars are "fixed" in their relative positions, and yet they seem to change position with the seasons, it leaves the question of how. Because the three Dominion Planets rotate, and yet they are always in the same relative positions to their constellations, it must be evidence of the Firmament itself rotating in a regular annual pattern, because otherwise how is that possible? The Dominion Planets rotate on the Orrery, and yet they're always following the same stars. Therefore, the outer layers of the cosmos must move, moving the stars in their wake. If they're fixed, it must be Oblivion (or Mundis) that is rotating. Using this internal logic, if the sun is also a star, and also fixed in its position, then it too must follow the same rotational pattern of the Firmament. This would explain the seasons, but not the night and day.

We can probably also assume, that since Nirn does turn on its axis, even though it has no orbital path on the Orrery, that it is the daily rotation of Nirn that causes the night and day. The size of Magnus can either be explained by the visual effect we see in the moon. As the moon rises, it appears smaller than it does when it's closer to the horizon, but it is always the same distance from Earth. But in the TES universe it could also be explained as a fluctuation of the radiating Magicka emanating from Magnus.

However, if Nirn did orbit Magnus, then the entire plane of Mundus would orbit Magnus, meaning the entire plane moves through Oblivion. It's more likely that is could be Mundis itself that is rotating and not the Firmament itself. Yet that leaves the question of the three Dominion Planets. It would mean they are moving in opposition to the rotation of Mundis, rather than in sequence with the Firmament, and it takes the question of Mundis orbiting right out of the equation. If Mundis actually moved through Oblivion, then the Dominion Planets would not be able to remain in a fixed relative position to the stars, because they follow a fairly simple orbital path around Nirn. It would also mean the stars wouldn't remain equidistant from Nirn, which they are stated to be by devs themselves. Because the stars are fixed in the Firmament and equidistant from Nirn, it follows that Nirn is indeed in the center and does not follow an orbital path.

So it's probably either Mundis rotating (not orbiting) or Oblivion rotating that causes the seasonal progression of the stars.

Magnus moves relative to the constellations. Judging by the http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/warrior_charge.shtml charge this seems to be the normal behaviour. All the constellations would wander if it weren't for the treat of the Serpent that requires them to stay close to their guardian.

Thanks for the clarification. I remember reading that now but had completely forgotten to take it into account.

So the stars remain fixed in their constellations out of fear, while the sun moves around, even though they're all holes in the sky? Well, I did argue earlier that it's a magical Cosmos, so I'll just have to accept it.

If this is so, then it is perhaps the stars following the paths of the Dominion Planets and not the other way around, so that the Guardian Constellations remain guardians.

That would be a sensible argument. Yes, this whole thing takes some suspension of disbelieve, welcome to the party.

Cosmology isn't a firsthand source, it's from an in-universe perspective from the Temple Zero Society, and doesn't stand up too well, in my opinion, from any perspective that isn't from Nirn. Look at the night skies of the Shivering Isles, or even the Deadlands.



You have a pretty good argument. I may disagree with you over the accuracy of Cosmology, but that doesn't detract from that perhaps Mundus does rotate around Nirn. Given Mundus is the Mortal Plane, it still is more sound and plausible than the entire universe spinning around Nirn.

For you excellent post, have a http://www.uesp.net/w/images/images.new/c/c4/Fishystick.jpg!

The Aurbis is a telescope of coterminous Wheels, which makes Nirn and each Oblivion plane rotate on a shared axis: a divine center.

A single Wheel? More like a Telescope that stretches all the way back to the Eye of the Anui-El, with Padomaics innumerable along its infinite walls.

Since Oblivion is coterminous with the plane of Nirn, travel there has happened since time immemorial.

Of course it's coterminous, because Oblivion surrounds Nirn. Oblivion is more than the Daedric planes, it's also the void. Heck, the vast majority of it is void.

But that doesn't mean that the Planes have to be close to Nirn. I mean, compare the Deadlands and the Shivering Isles. The Deadlands either have no star, or a dead star (the CS it is shown that the sun for the Deadlands is black, I believe) and the Shivering Isles, on the other hand, have a much different nearby star.

Wow, I never said they were, did I? All the planes fall on the common center. A Prince is the divine center of it's plane, as Lorkhan's Heart is the divine center of the mortal plane. You can't quantify the distance between them. There is none. The Deadlands would occupy the same space at the center as Nirn.

Then why is there no sun visible to the Deadlands, but there is a sun in the Shivering Isles? It's not that your theory isn't technically sound, but I'm reluctant to take the Imperial perspective, especially when it's got little backing, in favor of an alternate model. In truth, there's no real support for it, but it's no less sound.

I mean, the Imperials haven't even ventured out beyond their own continent in centuries. I have a hard time believing that they somehow have all the answers.

Each Daedric realm is different according to the will of the Daedric Prince that created it. Think of them as big bubbles in space-time where the Daedric Prince can basically define whatever you see when you enter the place however they choose. They can visually cut off the stars and the sun as much as they please. They could even create things that look like the sun and stars and place them in their own sky as they please.

Also, the Royal Imperial Mananauts have been traveling into the Outer Realms for centuries, and they've had lots of opportunity for exterior observation. They conducted a census of the Daedric realms. The Sun Birds in the Merethic Era even traveled to the stars and witnessed Mundis from outer edge of Oblivion. They brought back the celestial minerals that were used to construct the Orrery in Firsthold. The Orrery in Firsthold is indeed the most accurate (it even has the moons in the right place) because it was created based on exterior observation of the rotations in Mundis.

The model of the Aurbis is not just created by a bunch of myopic mortals sitting on the surface of their world looking up through telescopes. They've been traveling the stars and flying around Oblivion since the dawn of Nirn. The only part of the Aurbis that they haven't explored first hand is possibly Aetherius, because the jury is still out on whether the Sun Birds actually managed to go through Magnus, or only just reached Magnus in order to grab their samples of celestial matter.

Here are my sources for that info:
http://www.imperial-library.info/pge3/arena_supermundus.shtml
http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/census_daedra.shtml

Vivec, the Argonians, the Tsaesci, the Nords, the Altmer and the Imperials echo a similar design of the universe. Consider that each Daedric realm would have its own creation story. Perhaps, as the Daedra formed, certain events, like Magnus' escape, became confused or maligned. Maybe some Princes don't like Magnus, because it reminds them of painful memories. Maybe some have no memory of Magnus. Maybe the sun has a very warped revolution; as it glides through each plane, the sun could have a great deal of trouble breaking through some of these realms and into others; a night on Nirn could be a mellinium of wandering for Magnus. Maybe Dagon likes to eclipse the sun and take all the credit for the magic flow. It could even have to do with setting a mood for the player. I really don't know why Magnus isn't seen in the Deadlands.


Yes, that's the best and easiest answer: because they can.

I'm not convinced. Jyggalag left his realm and it remained the same, with the exception of The Fringewhich reverted to its state prior to being conquered by Order. For that matter, if Mehrunes Dagon had that much control over Oblivion, he wouldn't have had to pull out of Black Marsh, he could have just conjured a few lava tsunamis (two aspects of his sphere right there) to wipe out the Argonians. And the CoC. This is partially what my theory is based on, that while the Daedra Princes have the power to shape their realms, they have not shown total control over them.


The only real thing they can gather from their expeditions is that the sky in Oblivion isn't the same as the sky in Cyrodiil. What is done with that information is left to the Imperials.

[quote name='Stuporstar' date='14 May 2010 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1273851549' post='15943911']
The model of the Aurbis is not just created by a bunch of myopic mortals sitting on the surface of their world looking up through telescopes. They've been traveling the stars and flying around Oblivion since the dawn of Nirn. The only part of the Aurbis that they haven't explored first hand is possibly Aetherius, because the jury is still out on whether the Sun Birds actually managed to go through Magnus, or only just reached Magnus in order to grab their samples of celestial matter.
[quote]
Perhaps. But the evidence isn't solid enough to convince me. Yeah, I'm stubborn.

And what are you basing your theories on exactly? I've mined all of established lore for mine and provided links. You have not shown any evidence for your suppositions. :shakehead:

Ok, here you go, my evidence.

That there's a black void in the sky instead of a sun for the Deadlands, and a Magnus-like star in the Shivering Isles. That the Realms are shaped by the Daedra, but not under their complete control. And yet they still can affect other bodies, such as Secunda. That the Daedra, when banished, wander the void before finding their way back to their realm. That there are stars in the sky in Oblivion, yet the Planes of Oblivion cannot be observed from Nirn. That the realms and other bodies are spherical, and that everything is pulled by some force towards the centers of the bodies, including gases. That it's implied that there is territory contested between Daedra, and that their territory can expand across Oblivion. . Sure there's more than one way to interpret most of this information, but there's also more than one way to interpret the things supposedly supporting the Imperial belief.

It's not definitive and I'm certainly not trying to press my unorthodox theory on others; use whatever model you want. But I want you guys to know where I'm coming from.

I can try to attempt to explain what this evidence says to me, take it or leave it as you will.

The Deadric Realms begin to enter the realm of the metaphysical. It seems that different rules apply as you go up in creational gradients. Even the stars seems to follow their own rules that seem to defy the physical laws that would apply on Nirn itself. The creational gradient of Mundus follows the strict laws of nature set down by the Aedra and the Earthbones, but the Outer Realms are not subject to these laws.

The Daedric Realms, as created by the Deadra, are Padomaic and ever changing, and they can be defined however the Daedric Princes choose. Each realm is a kind of extra-dimensional bubble and has its own set of rules as defined by its original creator. These can be changed if there's an active Daedric will altering it, but if the Daedric Prince is no longer active, it kind of just sits there and either degrades or stays the same depending on whether or not there's beings running around in there wrecking the place or not. In a sense, in this state the Daedric Prince is dormant, but the realm is still technically one of the bodies of that Prince. When the Deadric Princes visit Nirn, they are only sending a physical avatar of themselves. A part of themselves probably needs to remain in Oblivion, as their realm. This part of them is probably dormant as their minds are focused on manifesting themselves elsewhere.

The Daedra are also probably off creating new territories and fighting over them in an attempt to expand their influence across the Void. They can potentially expand their holdings as much as they want, as the Void of Oblivion is an infinite plane. Their ability to create did not fade after the Dawn Era, unlike the Aedra. The wars between the Deadra are almost psychological, each one trying to impose its will over another. If one Deadra gains the holdings created by another Deadra, it has essentially imposed its will over the holding and taken it over metaphysically.

Only the planets are said to appear spherical, and this is attributed to "mortal mental stress". There is no mention of the shape of the Daedric Realms. They are different planes of existence, each one of them, not planets. They exist in some kind of inner space within Oblivion, in another dimension of space-time. They are not physical bodies at all. The only reason mortals can travel to any of them at all is because the Daedric Prince has created an environment in their own little pocket universe that can sustain mortal life, perhaps because it amuses them to see mortals running around in there. Some of the Deadric Realms are closed off entirely. This is said to be because the Deadric Prince doesn't want people there, but it could also mean they're uninhabitable. In essence, because the Deadric Prince does not want mortals there, it has not bothered to create an environment that can sustain mortal life.

Being that the Deadric Realms are little pocket universes, the stars you see could either be fake, or they could be letting the light in. That all depends on who made that realm and what they want it to look like. As I said, the rules that apply to Mundus do not apply at all to Oblivion. The whole point of Oblivion was that the Deadra didn't like the way the Aedra played the game, so they created their own realms with their own rules.

They are primarily in their element in Oblivion, but they are powerful enough to toy with Mundis as well. When you mention Secunda, are you talking about the Bloodmoon? As far as I was aware, the Bloodmoon was a third moon that appeared in the sky, and was entirely a Daedric creation that Hircine just kind of hurled into Nirn's orbit. (I remember reading something to that effect, but can't find the exact reference at the moment, so correct me if I'm wrong).

I got no problem with your idea. Not that I'm accepting it, but I won't make the effort to kill it. Truth be told, I'm well aware my model is the more far fetched one, Imperial lore wise. I stick with it because it works scientifically, both physically and sociologically, minimizing reliance on coming up with magical explanations. But whatever floats your boat, I suppose. It's not like it's making a big difference right now.

Well it's a world based entirely on magic and metaphysics, not physics. It's not even supposed to work scientifically. I'm just as skeptical in the real world as anyone, but Nirn is an exercise in pure fantasy. Nirn is not supposed to be a planet floating somewhere in our universe, and trying to apply our physical laws to an entire universe that is built with magic instead of light (that's right, light IS an effect of magicka, there is no such thing as proper physical light here) is an exercise in futility. It's not just "what floats my boat", I'm working with the whole underlying concept behind the Elder Scrolls universe rather than denying it and trying to force my rational worldview onto the world they created.

My whole purpose in posting in this thread is trying to nail down established lore. If you're arguing against lore itself, then we're arguing at cross-purposes I'm afraid.

don't get angry, Suporstar, Lore arguments are what make it so interesting.

Where did you get angry from that post, he was just explaining his perspective...

Yes, I'm not angry. Perhaps the argument got a bit heated, but definitely not angry.

But magic and metaphysics don't define everything. Biology and chemistry work more or less the same (with a few notable differences) and physics and sociology (which I usually base my ideas off of) seem to apply even more strictly. Sure magic can warp and alter them, but they're still there. The reason I see it as this is because it's easier to have a very similar set of scientific laws than trying to completely rewrite everything to make it work as it does.


I don't technically disagree with the lore, I take a sociological standpoint on it, given the vast majority of it is written by mortals. In other words, I leave the door open to the possibility that the mortals aren't always right about everything.

Fair enough. I get where you're coming from now. It's certainly made for an interesting debate, but I think we've both played this one out to our (completely separate) logical conclusions.

I thought we couldn't see/perceive the planets because of the mortal mental stress it caused? Kinda like how humans can't perceive the 4th dimension even though it exists.

Mortals do "see" the planets, but because of our mortal mental stress they appear as finite spheres rather than the infinite bodies which they are. So mortals just don't comprehend them correctly, they do "see" them.