studies are spreading misinformation

Post » Tue May 17, 2011 11:00 am

If a group gets busted "cooking" the numbers, people may point at them and laugh, and they loose their grants. But all they have to do is change their name, and reapply for funding... no one goes to prison over it.

My whole point is, this stuff is too unreliable and susceptible to manipulation to be taken as seriously as it is. If it walks like a lie, and quacks like a lie...let's just K.I.S.S. and call it a lie.


Thank you. Well spoken.
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Euan
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 2:11 pm

Thank you. Well spoken.

Be careful!

If you agree with me on too many points, you will end up on 87% of the forum user's ignore list (margin of error +/- 12%).

:angel:
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Jarrett Willis
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 4:11 am

Yep, I'm always very suspicious of statistic studies conclusions. 2 things being correlated doesn't mean one causes the other one, that's logic. There has to be a solid theory behind to take conclusions out of a statistic study. And of course the media concludes stupid things out of these studies, but that's media. Media = superficial and probably wrong knowledge, anyone who thinks watching the news make him understand any subject is stupid.
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Petr Jordy Zugar
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 11:43 am

You're right, a privately funded study is just as potentially inaccurate as a government funded one. But the government will cut it's funding, too... if the results of a given study doesn't conform to the "moral standards" we are "encouraged" to live by.
I've just seen them shot down too many times. And the fact that the results too often (ie: always) support the opinion of the group conducting the study, or otherwise mislead the general population into thinking they are somehow "not normal" or their opinion is otherwise un-acceptable if they don't think the same thing "98% of the average American" thinks... "You're not one of the undesirable 2%, ARE YOU?!!!"
... where are you getting your studies from? Mind providing us with some examples of what you're saying? And if you believe that all studies invariably support the opinion of the group that conducted the study then you've fallen prey to the fact that there are a whole lot of studies that are performed a year and many of them aren't published. My guess (and I could be wrong) is that you are talking about only the published studies.

And your engineering anology works too. Those can be spoofed as well, only the consequences for doing so are much more harsh... people may die. Surveys aren't a matter of life and death. If a group gets busted "cooking" the numbers, people may point at them and laugh, and they loose their grants. But all they have to do is change their name, and reapply for funding... no one goes to prison over it.
http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2010/12/south-korean-court-reduces-hwang.html Woo Suk Hwang was convicted on bioethics charges (cooking his books, as you say) and embezzlement. He didn't serve any jail time, however.

My whole point is, this stuff is too unreliable and susceptible to manipulation to be taken as seriously as it is. If it walks like a lie, and quacks like a lie...let's just K.I.S.S. and call it a lie.
Ok. Fine. Let's assume for the moment that you are right. So what does the scientific community do differently then? Just about every field of study would be destroyed if we simply assumed that statistics were unreliable.
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Karl harris
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 9:12 am

Ok. Fine. Let's assume for the moment that you are right. So what does the scientific community do differently then? Just about every field of study would be destroyed if we simply assumed that statistics were unreliable.

Not just the scientific community. Sports, marketing, medication, product development --- just about every part of the real world relies on statistics.

Even when you leave for work relies on statistics. You have an idea on how long on average (already a statistic) it takes you to get to work, maybe you include a little extra time to be safe, but there is also the probability that there is going to be a whole bunch of horrible traffic or car trouble that you just can't escape. You rate this, though, very low on the probability scale (outlier!) so discard it, even when it does happen.

Statistics and some algebra are pretty much the only maths your average person needs to know.
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Charlotte Lloyd-Jones
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 10:42 am

Be careful!

If you agree with me on too many points, you will end up on 87% of the forum user's ignore list (margin of error +/- 12%).

:angel:


And exactly how is that supposed to actually change my situation here?
Ssenkrad's last two paragraphs just reminded me of one particular can of warms I will not open here....because it teeters very close to a banned subject...and it's hotly contested....I'll leave it at that.
I'm not educated enough to really know.
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Elle H
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 5:15 am

I fail to see how it's any more reasonable to disbelieve everything you see in a statistic, just for being in a statistic, than to always believe everything shown by statistics, simply because it's part of a statistic. Certainly, statistics and studies CAN potentially spread misinformation, whether by an actual intention to be deceptive or not. Maybe they weren't researched properly, or lack necessary details, and sometimes, run result can be interpreted a number of different ways. But the same could be said for any source of information, statistics, do to their nature, perhaps have some problems other source of information do not have. But that doesn't mean they're all wrong. In a large part, the reliability of statistics will depend on how accurate and comprehensive the research behind them is, assuming whoever is behind them has no intention to spread misinformation but merely used whatever information the research produced, without any sort of alteration. It's also important to be careful about interpreting the numbers to mean anything oher than their face value, as with the TV example. Or to use the ever popular video game violence thing. If you have a statistic that says that a certain percentage of teen violence was conducted by people who have played violent video games, this doesn't prove that video games cause violence, we could also suppose that these people might enjoy violent video games because they already have violent tendencies. This doesn't mean the statistic itself is inaccurate, it just means that it may not present reliable evidence of the conclusion that one draws from it, or that it may not be the best piece of information to support one's argument, which is unfortunate as statistics may often be sited as a means to prove a point. Even so, an argument that is supported by a statistic still looks more convincing than one supported only by unrelenting aggression.

In short, don't believe everything you're told, statistics or otherwise. But if you go for the oposite extreme, that can cause problems too, and sometimes, you just have to take off your tin foil hat and except that maybe not EVERYONE is trying to deceive you. Sometimes, you need to apply a degree of your own judgement to information, and if you can't rely on you're own judgement... well, then maybe you'll get misled a lot. The risk of misleading information is always present, statistics or not, but shutting out all sources of information out of fear that some may spread misinformation will result in one being pretty ignorant.
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Elizabeth Lysons
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 6:56 am

1. That's why most studies go through peer-review processes in order to get published in (respectable) publications and 2. After Googling Dr. John Ioannidis, I came across http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/?tool=pmcentrez wonderful paper.

Not only is this paper a complete rehash of what any good statistician already knows, it's basically outlined like this:
"Math... basic stuff... math... generalization... math... money is evil... math... people are evil by repressing refutation of their studies... math..." (note: Obvious hyperbole is obvious.)


just leaving it too peer review is not good enough. since when does the media say; hold on people we were wrong, that big pandemic scare we spent huge money creating the graphical effects for our news hour was just an overeaction to something that has been happening for years in insignificant numbers.

@forum members from the united states, remember the swine flu scare and how freaked out every one got. yeah, a couple thousand people caught it and maybe a couple hundred died. yet every one left out the fact that tens of thousands of people die every year from the common cold. its things like the swine flu scare that gets me, specificly because they also tried to say that vaccines caused that too.
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Horse gal smithe
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 4:48 am

Swine flu was largely hyped by the media, but there was a legitimate fear behind the disease. It wasn't necessarily the amount of people that died but the transformation of the disease. It went from a minor documented pig disease and began spreading from person to person with ease. The real fear was not in the effects of the immediate disease but what other kinds of transformations could have occurred and may happen progressively as the disease spread and mutated more. And so as medical establishments observed the event the media ran around like the little runt of an attention seeker it is, telling everyone the "interesting" parts of what their medical daddy does at work.
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GRAEME
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 12:56 pm

just leaving it too peer review is not good enough. since when does the media say; hold on people we were wrong, that big pandemic scare we spent huge money creating the graphical effects for our news hour was just an overeaction to something that has been happening for years in insignificant numbers.
Huh? How is peer review "not good enough"? What would you possibly propose that's better?

@forum members from the united states, remember the swine flu scare and how freaked out every one got. yeah, a couple thousand people caught it and maybe a couple hundred died. yet every one left out the fact that tens of thousands of people die every year from the common cold. its things like the swine flu scare that gets me, specificly because they also tried to say that vaccines caused that too.
The reason everyone was worried about swine flu had a lot more to do with how deadly it could have been. You also have to remember that a whole lot of people were vaccinated against swine flu, as well. Plus people who got swine flu were typically quarantined away from everyone else. Not to mention that the media hyped it out of any real proportion.
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c.o.s.m.o
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 3:42 am

... where are you getting your studies from? Mind providing us with some examples of what you're saying? And if you believe that all studies invariably support the opinion of the group that conducted the study then you've fallen prey to the fact that there are a whole lot of studies that are performed a year and many of them aren't published. My guess (and I could be wrong) is that you are talking about only the published studies.

I'm not basing my opinions on anything someone else has said or any studies... I base them on past personal experience.
For example, studies indicate that:
marijuana is a "gateway" drug... b.s.
pormography incites a person to commit [censored]... b.s.
children who play violent video games will commit violent crimes... b.s.
unpasteurized milk is a health risk... b.s.
aspartame is safe for human consumption... b.s.

Maybe I did overstate my opinion... you're right, not all studies are cooked. There are groups that make an effort to conduct their studies impartially, and there are some groups that come up with inaccurate results which were reached without malicious intent.

But after a while of hearing this crap that is presented as if it were based on some sort of science, I pretty much dismiss it all as propaganda from the get-go. It is disseminated in such a way as to influence peoples attitudes and behaviors in order to benefit a specific group or organization. I'm not so gullible as to believe something just because some study "proves" it is so.

Ok. Fine. Let's assume for the moment that you are right. So what does the scientific community do differently then? Just about every field of study would be destroyed if we simply assumed that statistics were unreliable.

If the group doing the study is sincerely interested is determining actual numbers, they will (or at least come close).
But the ratio of groups like that to groups that are only interested in their own agenda is absurd.
After being lied to as often as we are, I find it really difficult to believe opinion polls or social studies out of hand. I prefer to hear it from multiple sources before I give it much credit, or believe it enough for it to merit further looking in to.
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Louise
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 7:52 am

Huh? How is peer review "not good enough"? What would you possibly propose that's better?

The reason everyone was worried about swine flu had a lot more to do with how deadly it could have been. You also have to remember that a whole lot of people were vaccinated against swine flu, as well. Plus people who got swine flu were typically quarantined away from everyone else. Not to mention that the media hyped it out of any real proportion.

1. peer review is when the peers feel like reviewing work. alot goes un reviewed but that isn't even my point. people treat these studies as if they were a conclusion to the proposed annalysis. and the people conducting these studies let it happen. people should be aware that just because a man in a lab coat tells you something that doesn't mean its fake. all these studies do is link statistics to other statistics, people should take these and say; OH X happens because of what this study said. I am not attacking science. I am attacking the arrogance that many of these studies are often based on demographics or perspective. (I am not talking about studies that use scientifical tangible evidence. but I am attackign the ones that just look at a number of people and declaire that they found the reason why people live longer or why babies are getting fatter, when its obvious there are more factors to these things than just a mono result that studies I have mention post)

2. even as deadly as it could have been, it would never have been half as deadly of the common cold. and my point was that it hyped and so are the studies I pointed out. people are using these studies to crusade their point of view and force it on others. which becomes a health risk.

unpasteurized milk is a health risk... b.s.


it drives me crazy when I hear pasturized milk is bad. all pasturization is, is heating the milk to kill things like, idk, salmanella. if it is bad for you then why don't people get sick when drinking hot coco?
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Anna Krzyzanowska
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 2:28 pm

Thread is befitting, given on how often the self lies to itself. Just realized this. Hahahaha.
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I’m my own
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 4:14 am

mirglof, I don't think you understand what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review#Scholarly_peer_review or how academic publishing even works.

That said, Reneer, I don't think your faith in the process should be as absolute as it appears to be from reading what you've read. There's such a huge volume of submission so constantly that crap slips through all the time. Just the way it is. At this point I figure the whole point of a peer-reviewed journal is to say "this is probably not crap" instead of "this is absolutely not crap".
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Adrian Morales
 
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Post » Mon May 16, 2011 11:34 pm

It's also evidently working on some level, we've made great progress in terms of technology and understanding of the sciences.
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Honey Suckle
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 2:32 pm

I'm not basing my opinions on anything someone else has said or any studies... I base them on past personal experience.
For example, studies indicate that:
marijuana is a "gateway" drug... b.s.
pormography incites a person to commit [censored]... b.s.
children who play violent video games will commit violent crimes... b.s.
unpasteurized milk is a health risk... b.s.
aspartame is safe for human consumption... b.s.

Maybe I did overstate my opinion... you're right, not all studies are cooked. There are groups that make an effort to conduct their studies impartially, and there are some groups that come up with inaccurate results which were reached without malicious intent.
I see. Personal experience. So you've done studies that demonstrate that all those things you say are b.s are actually b.s and not just your opinion?

Here is what actual research says about your various topics (Warning: Science Ahead):
1. Marijuana is a gateway drug.
From: Choo, T., Roh, S., & Robinson, M. (2008). ASSESSING THE "GATEWAY HYPOTHESIS"AMONG MIDDLE AND HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS IN TENNESSEE. Journal of Drug Issues, 38(2), 467-492. Retrieved from EBSCOhost.
Abstract:
Spoiler
The current study examines the applicability of the "gateway hypothesis" to drug use patterns of secondary school students from a nonmetropolitan area in Tennessee. The data were collected from students in the 8th, 10th, and 12th grades at three secondary schools, using self-administered questionnaires under supervision of teachers. Although there is some support for the gateway hypothesis in our data, there is also evidence that what differentiates those who move from initial marijuana use to use of harder drugs are risk factors unique to individuals and their environments, consistent with the predictions of problem behavior theory and integrated systems theory. Implications for various interpretations of the gateway hypothesis are discussed.


2. pormography incites a person to commit ([censored]?)
From: Kingston, D. A., Malamuth, N. M., Fedoroff, P., & Marshall, W. L. (2009). The Importance of Individual Differences in pormography Use: Theoretical Perspectives and Implications for Treating sixual Offenders. Journal of six Research, 46(2/3), 216-232. doi:10.1080/00224490902747701
Abstract:
Spoiler
This article reviews the extant literature regarding pormography's influence on antisocial attitudes, sixual arousal, and sixually aggressive behavior in both noncriminal and criminal samples. The article concludes that when examined in the context of multiple, interacting factors, the findings are highly consistent across experimental and nonexperimental studies and across differing populations in showing that pormography use can be a risk factor for sixually aggressive outcomes, principally for men who are high on other risk factors and who use pormography frequently. Finally, this article presents theoretical implications based on these findings, as well as some clinical implications relevant to the assessment and treatment of sixual offenders.


3. Children who play violent video games will commit violent crimes.
From: Porter, G., & Starcevic, V. (2007). Are violent video games harmful?. Australasian Psychiatry, 15(5), 422-426. Retrieved from EBSCOhost.
Abstract:
Spoiler
OBJECTIVE: The aim of this paper is to revisit the controversial issue of the association of violent video games and aggressive behaviour. CONCLUSIONS: Several lines of evidence suggest that there is a link between exposure to violent video games and aggressive behaviour. However, methodological shortcomings of research conducted so far make several interpretations of this relationship possible. Thus, aggressive behaviour may be a consequence of playing violent video games, an expression of hostile traits that existed before exposure to these games, and/or it may be a result of several possible combinations of these and other factors. Mental health professionals need to be aware of these potentially negative effects of violent video games when assessing patients who present with aggression. There is a need for prospective, long-term studies similar to those evaluating the effects of television and film violence on children and adolescents.


4. Unpasteurized milk is a health risk.
From: Burnett, S., & Beuchat, L. (2001). Human pathogens associated with raw produce and unpasteurized juices, and difficulties in decontamination. Journal of Industrial Microbiology & Biotechnology, 27(2), 104. Retrieved from EBSCOhost.
Abstract:
Spoiler
The ability of public health agencies to identify, through enhanced epidemiologic and surveillance techniques, raw fruits, vegetables, and unpasteurized juices as probable sources of infectious microorganisms, has undoubtedly resulted in increased numbers of documented outbreaks. Changes in agronomic, harvesting, distribution, processing, and consumption patterns and practices have also likely contributed to this increase. The risk of illness associated with raw produce and unpasteurized produce products can be reduced by controlling or preventing contamination, or by removing or killing pathogenic microorganisms by washing or treating them with sanitizers. However, the hydrophobic cutin, diverse surface morphologies, and abrasions in the epidermis of fruits and vegetables limit the efficacy of these treatments. Journal of Industrial Microbiology & Biotechnology (2001) 27, 104–110.


5. Aspartame is safe for human consumption.
From: Magnuson, B. A., Burdock, G. A., Doull, J. J., Kroes, R. M., Marsh, G. M., Pariza, M. W., & ... Williams, G. M. (2007). Aspartame: A Safety Evaluation Based on Current Use Levels, Regulations, and Toxicological and Epidemiological Studies. Critical Reviews in Toxicology, 37(8), 629-727. doi:10.1080/10408440701516184
Abstract:
Spoiler
Aspartame is a methyl ester of a dipeptide used as a synthetic nonnutritive sweetener in over 90 countries worldwide in over 6000 products. The purpose of this investigation was to review the scientific literature on the absorption and metabolism, the current consumption levels worldwide, the toxicology, and recent epidemiological studies on aspartame. Current use levels of aspartame, even by high users in special subgroups, remains well below the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and European Food Safety Authority established acceptable daily intake levels of 50 and 40 mg/kg bw/day, respectively. Consumption of large doses of aspartame in a single bolus dose will have an effect on some biochemical parameters, including plasma amino acid levels and brain neurotransmitter levels. The rise in plasma levels of phenylalanine and aspartic acid following administration of aspartame at doses less than or equal to 50 mg/kg bw do not exceed those observed postprandially. Acute, subacute and chronic toxicity studies with aspartame, and its decomposition products, conducted in mice, rats, hamsters and dogs have consistently found no adverse effect of aspartame with doses up to at least 4000 mg/kg bw/day. Critical review of all carcinogenicity studies conducted on aspartame found no credible evidence that aspartame is carcinogenic. The data from the extensive investigations into the possibility of neurotoxic effects of aspartame, in general, do not support the hypothesis that aspartame in the human diet will affect nervous system function, learning or behavior. Epidemiological studies on aspartame include several case-control studies and one well-conducted prospective epidemiological study with a large cohort, in which the consumption of aspartame was measured. The studies provide no evidence to support an association between aspartame and cancer in any tissue. The weight of existing evidence is that aspartame is safe at current levels of consumption as a nonnutritive sweetener.


But after a while of hearing this crap that is presented as if it were based on some sort of science, I pretty much dismiss it all as propaganda from the get-go. It is disseminated in such a way as to influence peoples attitudes and behaviors in order to benefit a specific group or organization. I'm not so gullible as to believe something just because some study "proves" it is so.
And here's the problem: One study does not actually prove or disprove something. All one study can (usually) do is provide evidence for the null hypothesis or reject the null hypothesis (based upon the data and, yes, statistics). You could run a hundred studies all on the same thing and they wouldn't "prove" anything either - they'd just provide a mountain of evidence that what the studies found was (very likely) to be the case.

1. peer review is when the peers feel like reviewing work. alot goes un reviewed but that isn't even my point. people treat these studies as if they were a conclusion to the proposed annalysis. and the people conducting these studies let it happen. people should be aware that just because a man in a lab coat tells you something that doesn't mean its fake. all these studies do is link statistics to other statistics, people should take these and say; OH X happens because of what this study said. I am not attacking science. I am attacking the arrogance that many of these studies are often based on demographics or perspective. (I am not talking about studies that use scientifical tangible evidence. but I am attackign the ones that just look at a number of people and declaire that they found the reason why people live longer or why babies are getting fatter, when its obvious there are more factors to these things than just a mono result that studies I have mention post)
Ok... I think I see your point here. You seem to have much more of a problem with the way studies are reported (by the media) than the studies themselves. I can certainly agree with that. No reason to blame the researchers, though.

2. even as deadly as it could have been, it would never have been half as deadly of the common cold. and my point was that it hyped and so are the studies I pointed out. people are using these studies to crusade their point of view and force it on others. which becomes a health risk.
You don't know that. I don't know that, either. It could certainly have been as deadly as some scientists feared - neither of us has evidence to the contrary for something that might have occurred - but thankfully it was not as deadly and we're all still here to debate about it. :P

That said, Reneer, I don't think your faith in the process should be as absolute as it appears to be from reading what you've read. There's such a huge volume of submission so constantly that crap slips through all the time. Just the way it is. At this point I figure the whole point of a peer-reviewed journal is to say "this is probably not crap" instead of "this is absolutely not crap".
You've read, at most, maybe a paragraph or two about my views on the peer review process. I can assure you my belief in the ability of the peer review process to weed out bad studies is not absolute - not even close. I believe the peer review process to be a much better method than simply allowing every researcher on the planet to publish their study in Nature or Science with abandon. I do not believe the peer review process to be faultless - I even, earlier, noted a study where the peer review process failed to detect falsified research. Please do not make assumptions about my views.
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Alberto Aguilera
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 4:51 am

1. peer review is when the peers feel like reviewing work. alot goes un reviewed but that isn't even my point. people treat these studies as if they were a conclusion to the proposed annalysis. and the people conducting these studies let it happen. people should be aware that just because a man in a lab coat tells you something that doesn't mean its fake. all these studies do is link statistics to other statistics, people should take these and say; OH X happens because of what this study said. I am not attacking science. I am attacking the arrogance that many of these studies are often based on demographics or perspective. (I am not talking about studies that use scientifical tangible evidence. but I am attackign the ones that just look at a number of people and declaire that they found the reason why people live longer or why babies are getting fatter, when its obvious there are more factors to these things than just a mono result that studies I have mention post)

2. even as deadly as it could have been, it would never have been half as deadly of the common cold. and my point was that it hyped and so are the studies I pointed out. people are using these studies to crusade their point of view and force it on others. which becomes a health risk.




It still seems like you are more angry at people misreading statistics or the media compared to the people actually doing the studies. How is it someone fault if their study gets misinterpreted when they explicitly say the culture or area that the study applies to?
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Sammygirl
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 1:16 am

I have no doubt there are studies conducted properly using the scientific method. But you must understand that there are just as many studies who's sole purpose is to support an agenda. The scientific community seems to do a pretty good job of determining which ones are legitimate and which ones are not. Unfortunately the general public is forced to judge for themselves and often get it wrong.
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Heather M
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 9:29 am

I see. Personal experience. So you've done studies that demonstrate that all those things you say are b.s are actually b.s and not just your opinion?
...

Let me reiterate (with emphases):
I'm not basing my opinions on anything someone else has said or any studies... I base them on past personal experience.

When a study/poll/report says something that is incorrect (ie: a lie), I make a little mental tic mark on the hypothetical score card I keep in my head. The running tally to date shows an overwhelming tendency of said studies/polls/reports to be absolute b.s.

I call this method "critical thinking". I base my opinions on any source of information by what I have seen from them in the past.
I know, how absurd, right? A person basing their opinions on personal experiences, instead of what they are told they should believe.

I think we are basically butting heads here.
You're being critical of me for not believing informations that you see as reliable.
I'm being critical of you for believing information from sources that I see as unreliable.
And neither of us are accomplishing anything...
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Judy Lynch
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 10:15 am

Let me reiterate (with emphases):

When a study/poll/report says something that is incorrect (ie: a lie), I make a little mental tic mark on the hypothetical score card I keep in my head. The running tally to date shows an overwhelming tendency of said studies/polls/reports to be absolute b.s.
How do you know? Seriously? How do you know that a physics paper is wrong? That a psychology paper is wrong? I'd really like to know how you know.

I call this method "critical thinking". I base my opinions on any source of information by what I have seen from them in the past.
I know, how absurd, right? A person basing their opinions on personal experiences, instead of what they are told they should believe.
No one is telling you what you should or should not believe. All a research paper is telling you is what the researchers found during the study. You are dismissing scientific research because it goes against your personal experiences - all I want to know is where you get all that personal experience from to simply be able to know that a study is full of b.s.

I think we are basically butting heads here.
You're being critical of me for not believing informations that you see as reliable.
I'm being critical of you for believing information from sources that I see as unreliable.
And neither of us are accomplishing anything...
On that I think we both agree.

And I'm only being critical of you because you are dismissing scientific studies out of hand based (as you say) solely on your personal experience. I don't know all the answers - that is why I rely on researchers to help guide me to a better understanding of various fields in which I am not an expert.
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JaNnatul Naimah
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 9:18 am

You've read, at most, maybe a paragraph or two about my views on the peer review process. I can assure you my belief in the ability of the peer review process to weed out bad studies is not absolute - not even close. I believe the peer review process to be a much better method than simply allowing every researcher on the planet to publish their study in Nature or Science with abandon. I do not believe the peer review process to be faultless - I even, earlier, noted a study where the peer review process failed to detect falsified research. Please do not make assumptions about my views.

I was a little confused as to why you seemed to have gotten so upset at me, but upon rereading what I wrote I think I wrote the wrong thing, I meant to say "reading what you've written", which really is obviously all of a couple paragraphs. My apologies if I've offended.
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Rob Smith
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 4:01 am

I was a little confused as to why you seemed to have gotten so upset at me, but upon rereading what I wrote I think I wrote the wrong thing, I meant to say "reading what you've written", which really is obviously all of a couple paragraphs. My apologies if I've offended.
I myself was also a little heated from the rest of the conversation when I wrote that. My apologies. :)
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Ray
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 12:08 am

Honestly, I think some of the problem here may be the source of studies. For example, I read a lot of different sources that look at scientific studies. That means I read about a lot of studies (and read quite a few of the studies myself). I've found the overwhelming majority of them to be quite accurate. On the other hand, many of the studies discussed in the mainstream media tend to have 'surprising' results, that's why they're news, and in my experience, these studies that produce very surprising results have a higher tendency to have forgotten to account for some variable, or another.

Still, I must register an objection that 'Critical Reading' of any given study can be done purely by relying on our own experiences. If I find a study that has a result that I find counter-intuitive, I tend to investigate it further to find the flaws in there reasoning (or what the media left out in their truncated report). If such a task could be done without research, then you'd be the ultimate source of all information because you'd never need to learn.
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Monika
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 11:43 am

How do you know? Seriously? How do you know that a physics paper is wrong? That a psychology paper is wrong? I'd really like to know how you know.

I couldn't explain how David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear when he did it. But I didn't believe for a second that the Statue of Liberty had vanished from Ellis Island.
I knew from past experiences that "magicians" use illusions to make people believe that they had performed magic, so I remained skeptical that he had really done what I had just seen him do with my own eyes.
I had seen enough illusions debunked to know from past experience that it was really just a trick. I couldn't explain it. I didn't understand the "science" behind it. But I still didn't believe it, based solely on past experience.

And there are people that honestly and sincerely believe, with all their heart and soul, that magic is real. They honestly believe that Chris Angel can walk on water and levitate. No matter how many times a given illusion is explained to them, they go right on thinking that these guys are really cutting the woman in the box in half.

Now, to expand on this anology...
Corporations and the government are not interested in the welfare of the general public... they are only (ONLY) interested in profit, power over others, fame, and/or their own self interests (usually monetary gain, but not always).
And it is blatantly obvious (to me, at least) that they are willing to cheat and lie to fulfill their wants. People who seek to control other people are generally charlatans. They use deception to manipulate people in to doing whatever it is that will achieve the desired end result.

If the deception were transparent, or easily explained away, it wouldn't work. Statistics and social experiments are "magical" enough to most people to be an effective means of manipulation. I have seen enough studies and social experiments debunked to know from past experience that it is really just a trick. I can't explain it. I don't understand all the "science" behind it. But I still don't believe it, based solely on past experience.

And I'm only being critical of you because you are dismissing scientific studies out of hand based (as you say) solely on your personal experience. I don't know all the answers - that is why I rely on researchers to help guide me to a better understanding of various fields in which I am not an expert.

I don't know all the answers either, but when an institution continuously keeps getting caught telling lies and half truths, they lose my faith. I doubt whatever they say, just as a matter of practice. If it turns out they are right or the statistics are accurate, I say "Wow!", and accept the fact. But that doesn't happen too often...

...
Still, I must register an objection that 'Critical Reading' of any given study can be done purely by relying on our own experiences. If I find a study that has a result that I find counter-intuitive, I tend to investigate it further to find the flaws in there reasoning (or what the media left out in their truncated report). If such a task could be done without research, then you'd be the ultimate source of all information because you'd never need to learn.

I don't really follow what you're saying there, and I'm not sure exactly who it is aimed at, but I have not said once that I am the ultimate source of information, or know everything.

What I have said is, that I don't believe everything I hear/see/read. Statistics are too easily manipulated to be accepted as facts, without question. When I see a statistic, I doubt it. If the data is re-enforced by enough reliable sources, or I see a correlation between the statistic, and something I have a personal experience with, then I will accept it.

I've just been saying, in my sarcastic, George Carlin influenced way, that the sources of the information, and the means by which the information is derived, is notorious for being incorrect.
If that makes me a know-it-all to you, then you can call me a know-it-all. I prefer to see my self as curious and eager to learn, but not gullible.
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Rudy Paint fingers
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 11:09 am

Corporations and the government are not interested in the welfare of the general public... they are only (ONLY) interested in profit, power over others, fame, and/or their own self interests (usually monetary gain, but not always).
And it is blatantly obvious (to me, at least) that they are willing to cheat and lie to fulfill their wants. People who seek to control other people are generally charlatans. They use deception to manipulate people in to doing whatever it is that will achieve the desired end result.

If the deception were transparent, or easily explained away, it wouldn't work. Statistics and social experiments are "magical" enough to most people to be an effective means of manipulation. I have seen enough studies and social experiments debunked to know from past experience that it is really just a trick. I can't explain it. I don't understand all the "science" behind it. But I still don't believe it, based solely on past experience.
I now see the reasoning why you feel the way you do, and I've come to realize (a little behind you, I note) that there's no utility in continuing this particular aspect of the discussion because of this fundamental difference in opinion. Plus, you know, politics and all that.

I don't know all the answers either, but when an institution continuously keeps getting caught telling lies and half truths, they lose my faith. I doubt whatever they say, just as a matter of practice. If it turns out they are right or the statistics are accurate, I say "Wow!", and accept the fact. But that doesn't happen too often...
See, the problem with that is you have a fundamental issue with both statistics and studies - your bias (much as I am biased) is to disbelieve the studies because of your past experience. But, also, even if those studies are corroborated by other studies... you still disbelieve them (or so I understand). What does it take, then, to satisfy your disbelieving nature?

Now, to be utterly fair, I myself am biased in favor of statistics and studies. I tend to believe in them, both because I know how much work goes into them and the fact that I myself am training to be a researcher (in the field of psychology). I feel that, based upon my education, that I have the necessary knowledge and tools to examine studies, including their hypotheses, methodology and statistics (but I dislike statistics). Does that mean I know if a study's results are in fact indicative of what the author's say? No. But it gives me a decent crack at knowing if something smells fishy.

Also... where are you finding all these examples of institutions telling lies?
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Zach Hunter
 
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