Given the topic is on the player characters and the fact that most quests in the game are sidequests, not much lore can be established at this point on the CoC. Therefore, there isn't enough evidence to really give a lore-based answer on player characters.

Now, mechanically, it was much easier to go around quests and kill people before the traps are sprung in TES III, because characters weren't flagged as essential nor was there a way presented to get around.

Now you're just trying to weasel out of the argument. Mechanics are not an excuse for poor storytelling. You also still haven't explained why you see those quests you mentioned as painfully obvious traps that you had to put yourself into to progress the story.

They're an excuse for not being able to go around bad storytelling.


They're no more obvious than the stuff in TES IV.

Well, if it can push this argument along a bit I can point out a few times that the Nerevarine acted like a complete idiot. The short answer: Tribunal. The long answer follows.

What is the most logical thing to do when assassins track you down? Well, fight back is a reasonable answer (for a hero). What do you do when you discover who hired them? Confront the guilty party is reasonable (for a hero). The most logic next step however is not to work for said guilty partys right-hand man tracking down traitors and quieting slanderous press. This guy admits (in uncertain terms) that they sent the assassins. Then not complaining when rewarded with a sword that kills its wielder.

Working for Almalexia is slightly better, as she generally doesn't try to kill you. However, you're suddenly working against the people you were working for just a minute ago, for seemingly no reason whatsoever. Then there's the mazed band, where once you've found it you're actually told that you're an idiot for giving such a powerful artefact to such an untrustworthy person.

Now, because there was an attack yo're now working directly for Helseth, the man who tried to kill you. He then fabricates a plot against his mother, and despite you hearing that you were in fact the target, you cannot confront him about it. He then puts you into a duel (with no explanation as to why) with somebody who has never been beaten. Ever. After surviving that the Nerevarine apparently believes the only logical step is to work for this guy who has tried to kill them five times.

Going back to Almalexia and she asks you to help terrorise the people of Mournhold because "They don't love her enough" which you freely do. She then asks you to find a sword, because it's better than other swords or something like that. To cap it all off, she tries to kill you, but that's actually quite reasonable as you weren't openly told that she wanted to do that.

Tribunal in general was a little odd, narratively speaking.


(wow, spellcheck accepted 'narratively?')

I just walked into that obvious trap AGAIN yesterday. Granted, this time my Nerevarine was a level 65 Orc Knight who frankly killed those guys with pathetically minimum resistance. (Anyone else find it a bit strange that Carinus himself seems to be a much tougher opponent than any of the heavily armored NPCs you fight in the game?)

I should probably kick myself in the pants for being so gullible, even if it's been three years since I did the Carnius branch of those quests.

I usually walk into the traps simply because there's often a reward for surviving it, such as Trueflame or the Amulet of Shadows.

The best trap was that amulet that takes you to the Dremora Lord with the Crescent Blade. Oblivion's was the murder of the Emperor, which petrified the player in place before the slaying he was so startled.

Those ladies of the night really pulled the wool over my eyes at the farm house, I thought I was gonna get me some.

The Tribunal quests don't go on without you doing the will of Almalexia, such as the Mazed Band quest in which everyone involved warns you not to give it to her.

Yes, but why not? The story creates the suggestion that Sotha Sil has gone mad and until you finally meet Dead Sotha you have no reason to disbelieve it. Afterwards is kinda obvious that she used the Mazed band for everything but until you know Sotha is dead, you can't figure that out.

Because everyone involved warns you not to give it to her?

And shortly after you give it to her the Fabricants appear with no explanation and no sign of where they had come from. Of course, I still fell for it, despite what Plitinius Mero, Barenziah, Salas Valor, Vivec, and just about every non-hostile Ashlander out there said about her.

Yes, you couldn't have known all the details in advance but after all the things that you did see and hear, you should've been able to be suspicious enough to not simply hand the thing over, and instead, be able to find out just what she's up to. Of course that would've been a lot more work especially if Bethesda wanted to keep the same outcome...

I looked it up, and none says such a thing. The general direction of conversation is that people do not understand what Almelexia would want with such an item as well as that the Band is powerful and only a god can use it.

Ayem herself also smooths it over when you ask. "I will use the ring as I do everything...to serve the Temple and all of Morrowind." which is in line with the suggestion from Gavas Drin, he just find it hard to imagine because he doesn't know that the Heart has been destroyed and Ayem no longer as powerful as she used to be. At that point she has no reason to kill you.

Now this deception is spun out over several quests, has sufficient complexity, and a background in the greater setting. So you can not honestly consider this equal to the the petty betrayals in Oblivion.

Plitinus Mero said that it shouldn't even be retrieved.

So? The world would be better of if half of what the Nerevarine might have been carrying disappeared forever.

Now Mero is only one of the people who comments on the mazed band and the others are far more neutral. The strongest point of fear also seems the bands ability to open gates to Oblivion, transportation is just something uninteresting it also happens to do.

So at this point, knowing that Ayem has taken care of the people of Morrowind for several centuries, what reasons do you have not to give her the ring?

Yeah, I had forgotten some of that but the gist seemed to be what was said earlier. Even so on my only playthrough I didn't want to give her the ring because of the warnings, and finding no other way to continue I eventually looked up what to do online.

Which you'd have to be gullible to believe.

Same ballpark, but you're saying spreading it out more means you're less dumb for not seeing it earlier? You don't have to know everything about the situation to know you shouldn't do something. You're trying too hard.

Sure.

Considering it's all guesses, why take the chance on giving it to her? You can't trust a god who can't turn on a weather machine.

I didn't believe that at all when I played through, I thought the Tribunal were frauds and Almalexia was needing a battery boost to her power. I was in favor of Helseth and did his quests first, so I wanted him to have the powerful ring.

It's not like Almalexia hasn't plotted against Nerevar before. For that matter, her Ordinators have been hunting Incarnates for quite some time.

Not to mention that Boethiah is her Anticipation.

Also, Vivec warns you about Almalexia. Something along the lines of, "She takes her divinity very seriously, and the loss weighs heavily on her. She tends to brood, and I fear she will do herself or others harm."

Admitedly, Vivec is a ferocious liar, but I'm not about to give the Mazed Band, one of the most powerful artifacts in Tamriel's history, over to a fading god who I think may be losing her marbles. That is, unless I need to do that to continue to main quest.

The main plots of Morrowind and expansions, and Oblivion and expansion have all been fairly linear. You have a certain task, completing this task requires completing some other task, and the completion of this task leads to another task. The times in which you do have a choice about what you do, the choice rarely makes any real difference (side quests and the main quest of Daggerfall obviously excepted, as well as the "backdoor" method for completing Morrowind). This is a natural consequence of having a pre-determined quest line with a single, set conclusion: you can allow for a certain degree of freedom within it, but it doesn't actually do much to impact the main story. To the degree that you play such a main quest, you are essentially a character in an interactive story. The freedom, and consequently the opportunity for the protagonist of the story to reveal genuine intelligence or stupidity (meaning: not pre-scripted) is either through side quests which are resolvable in multiple ways, or through the player leaving the preset quest-path and embarking on their own journeys.

For much of the main plots of Morrowind and expansions, and Oblivion and expansion, the only wholy cogent explanation for why the protagonist does what he/she does is the player's suspension of disbelief, concern for personal saftey, ethical intuitions, etc, which comes from knowledge that "it's just a game." Why is the CoC stupid? Because the player doesn't really care that he/she is walking into an obvious trap (etc). The player is more interested in the unfolding of the story than they are the deleterious (and also toothless) consequences which may result from proceeding with the present stage of a quest.

If we're going to genuinely create the opportunity for the protagonist to reveal his or her intelligence (or lack thereof), it can be done in at least two ways. One, we can make a game that doesn't have a set storyline: instead, it will either have a series of possible storylines (ala Daggerfall); or, will have no storyline (main quest, other sequential quests), but only a "world" to explore and a large number of side quests which you can choose to complete or ignore at your discretion (concievably a very good MMO could fit into this category). Two, have a set storyline, but then try to rationalize the ostensibly "stupid" acts in order to make them really intelligent (the protagonist was really doing it because...").

Using your no MQ approach you could make it possible for the player to create and MQ - and not only by mere rationalisation

No. I'm saying there wasn't enough info to make that connection yet. The only reasons for not giving her the ring is because it's powerful and people were shouting somewhat hysterically that it might open gates to Oblivion. Not because you figured out she was going to kill Sotha Sil and make you her Martyr to further her own glory.


Anyway. Compare this story with the petty betrayals and traps in Oblivion. Vampire hunters being lead by some one who looks like one? Giving a Lich his hand back because he made peace with the gods? Or even buying the house because it's so damn cheap. If you felt gullible in Tribunal, you must have been clawing your eyes out in Oblivion.

Actually, Seridur doesn't show any outward visual signs of being a vampire.

Edit: And even then, most NPC's don't seem to be able to identify a 25% vampire. Then again, most NPC's have never even seen a vampire.

Edit: As for the house, the very name of the quest, as well as some of the rumors around Anvil suggest it's haunted. And let's face it, it's not a bad real estate deal for those that can handle themselves against ghosts. As for the lich himself, he was already dead, there isn't much else to follow.

So you're saying vampire hunters shouldn't recognize a vampire when they see one, too?

The Order of the Sacred Blood wasn't made up of vampire hunters (except for the CoC of course), it was basically a neighborhood watch committee.