Okay so, here's a little complaint I guess you can say. Karma. And any group that hates you. You would think any group that is "Hated" or "Vilified" you wouldn't lose karma from killing them(SELF DEFENSE :gun: ) or taking their items stashed in crates and footlockers or just plainly put on a shelf(they're dead and they hate you :poke: ) so putting it bluntly I don't get why you should lose karma for killing and looting the ENEMIES... I would be Jesus right now if it wasn't for that. :flame:

This has to be the only complaint I have towards FNV.. Anyone else feel the same way?

I've noticed this too. I found it funny that I lost karma while looting the camp of a band of murderous thugs.

Karma doesn't appear to play much of a role in the game, outside of being some sort of left-over mechanic from FO3. I haven't fully played through the game, though, so maybe I just haven't gotten far enough along, but I suspect it's sort of just there like the Challenges (except there's no badges).

One of the first things I'm planning on doing after I finish a play-through and make sure that it IS a "leftover system" is to concoct an overhaul of how it's gained/lost and treated.

Yep, I don't get it either. So is this some purist thing, that stealing is always stealing no matter what situation... which I just happen to disagree. If I get shot at, I bloody surely will take 'em everything and give 'em nothing!

And I haven't found any use for karma yet. So should be removed completely, or made so that it affects more in game?

It shouldn't count for self defence, but bad karma should be earned from stealing possessions - even if you don't like them, or they're dead. Simple stuff.

I know exactly what your going through. No idea why you lose karma in certain areas in the game that are clear of npc's. I won't get into details because of spoilers but there are several locations in the game were you can't loot from enemies bases that you have cleared or NPC's that are no longer living in certain areas that are completely empty that you still cannot loot from without losing karma.

It's pretty bad. I'm guessing either its a script issue or the game still isn't fully fleshed out in this respect.



Bad karma should not be earned from taking possessions in a wasteland where you are hellbent on surviving, especially if they are your enemies. Doesn't make much sense. Maybe if they were still alive and you were sneaking around sure that could be bad karma. But if you raided a legion base for example and killed everyone because they were hostile, then weren't able to loot anything without losing karma? Doesn't make much sense. If you aren't losing karma from killing them why should you lose it from taking items from their base after they have died?

Because of the way the Reputation system is set up, you *could* be friends with those evil bad guys that you killed. So, their loot (unlike the loot in generic areas) is marked as "owned".

But the system isn't fancy enough to change the ownership flags based on how your reputations are.


Which is why you get good karma for killing a Powder Ganger, but lose karma for taking the crap on the table next to him.

Then they should patch the system to recognize when the player should be able to loot without losing karma, because its rather ridiculous and the sense of immersion breaks.

This is about the 20th thread on the subject.

If you have the PC version, you can try a mod I made demonstrating that it is pretty trivial to flip the owned items to not being owned once you reputation with a faction hits a certain point. It's basically a demo so it's only for the NCRCF Powder Gangers, and only if you aren't already vilified by them. This seems to be a pretty big concern so I suppose I'll finish up the mod sometime so it works on all factions.

http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35383

well looks like there are parts of the programm, the developers forgot to edit, you can say, they forgot to cut out all of the fallout 3 scripts, i wouldnt wonder if the father from fallout 3 spawns somewhere and asks me to come crawling to him. :laugh:

Think of it like this--Karma is an 'absolute' good and evil system, not related to faction alignment. Killing an evil person gets you good karma, killing a good person nets you bad karma. As long as you are killing your karmic opposite, your karmic choice is supported, meaning that you move your karma level in the right direction, good or evil.

Stealing seems to be considered an evil act, no matter who you steal from. The stuff on your enemy's corpse is fair game, that's spoils of war. Anything else they own is rightfully the property of their next of kin after they die, so in effect you're stealing from THEM. They may or may not be evil (you can't just declare them evil by association).

So, evil characters gain an advantage, being able to steal everything without fearing for their karma, while good characters take a hit if they loot anything owned beyond the bodies of the fallen. This balances the fact that evil players will have lost some other opportunities--traders might not want to deal with them, for example.

The system still feels broken, but this rationale seems to adequately explain things for most circumstances.

The thought I had about that is......

ok, that works if you're playing Good - You're killing evil people, and no one cares that you're taking their stuff. (Well, they do, but they're evil)

But what about when you play an Evil character, who's allied to the Powder Gang and the Legion? You're killing good guys, and..... hold on, the "authorities" (and whatever force it is that keeps track of Karma) probably still care that they're taking their stuff. Especially since, hey - you're evil. Shouldn't stealing still be an "evil" act?

But then it's not an even system - "good" characters have no Karma effect for stealing from their enemies, while "evil" characters do?


This is where one starts to realize why they just avoided the whole issue.

Looting a dead NPC shouldn't cause a negative karma, stealing from a live NPC; stealing items from an area whether it is monitored or not; killing public NPC even when aggravated will and always have caused negative karma, it has been like that since it's existence. You must understand the Karma system in FO from a puritanical view, any and all sins are negative; any and all deeds are positive. Personally I'd hate a more complex system, plus there is enough items in NV that you can obtain without a negative karma ( red cursor ). As such even those you must steal, the loss of karma is tiny - go help someone or something.

Reputation on the other hand is just as simple: if you kill or steal from a faction whether it is witnessed or not, it will aggravate them. The reasoning is in the simplicity, you steal from NCR or kill a Caesar Legion then you aren't liked, I really can not see the fault in that. I can appreciate the fault in simplicity, but how complex do you want it.

From what I'm reading your asking them to let you steal from them, and your wanting it to not affect karma? The irony is tingling, anyway karma doesn't do much in the game as FO does, it is more reputation at hand.

Reno

Who gives a [censored] about Karma, it has no effect on the game whatsoever. The only thing that matteres is your Rep.

Ethics depend on the person, you can't depict something as good or bad as everyone will experience it in a different way. Ethics is therefore a very complicated matter and it is hard to get it right in a game (or real life for that matter) however I do agree that you shouldn't lose karma if you steal from dead people, since it's a game about a nuclear wasteland and that not losing karma from stealing from dead people seems appropriate in the setting.

Can I use you as an example Nobody? Lets say, you attack me and we fight. That would mean we are enemies. I kill you. I don't get bad Karma because the community finds you a mennace. You attack people. I might even get good Karma for doing so. But, if I steal your possessions in a container, then I get Bad Karma for stealing. Just because I kill you, where does that give me the right to steal your possesions? Maybe in your will you have given those possesions away in a will, so then once you are dead they do not belong to you but someone else.

Also just because you kill me in your camp, those possesions in the containers may not belong to you. Maybe the belong to another member of your gang who is else where at the moment. Just because you kill a bandint in a camp it doesn't mean they own those possesions. Maybe your home is in Washington, but you are visiting friends or your gang in Nevada wastelands. So I kill you in Nevada but you live in Washington how can those be your possesions then?

So the answer is, just because a person is there at the camp they are not his possesions.

Maybe it's an unwritten law of the west. You kill someone, you get to take what ever is on him or her, but you do not get to take anything else.

I don't worry about Karma at all.

I actually got POSITIVE (!) karma last night, for killing a powder ganger. No idea.

yea karma seems completely obsolete in new vegas with all the individual faction reputations, they seem to be the only thing that actually effects gameplay at all

plus i get negative karma around the clock, yet have never fallen below neutral, sometimes i'm even good, or very good?

don't know, don't care