» Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:06 pm This topic musn't become a second debate place, but should be where most of the important conclusions are resumed. I'll try to update it as often as possible, but if you think I forgot something, or find that something isn't well explained, say it.
I use a lot of copy/paste of other people sentences, if you don't it to be totally included, or want to see some change done, tell it to me.
MK clues (his quotes are in Big):
All began http://forums.bethso...st__p__21726655 :
No one has achieved Amaranth yet.*
(Toesock, sorry you took offense at the description of the demise of Barfok.)
*Except for the one being or idea that no one has found yet, which is still just sitting there.
It's been a named thing/person/idea for a long time. And it's not something that exists only in Obscure Texts, as that would be cheating.
It's right strange that Nir is only mentioned once, innit now?
Closer.
"Funny that "Nir" in dragon-talk is "hunt"."
Great find.
Do you know who else is missing?
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride
Closer and closer.
29. 2. 9. 11. 7. 18.
Then it gets all messed up with 4.5.
Off to bed, but it's a locked room mystery.
Quick rundown:
1) A person, place, or thing has achieved Amaranth, the New Existence
2) This annoying MK person says that the original creation, Nir, the Enantiomorphic witness figure, and a buncha numbers are important to locating said Amaranth
3) But he never said that this Amaranth dreamt the Aurbis as we know it, so why the importance of 2?
4) Whoa, the cops are coming again
"So Amaranth is not the Dreamer, is that confirmation?"
Not that Dreamer, no. The Amaranth has jumped past Tamriel, as in the purpose of the Loveletter.
Not true. The book Where Were You When the Dragon Broke is from Morrowind.
So's its out-of-time re-examination. Ahem.
I think we can ignore 11, 7, and 18.
You could.
There was a discussion about Akatosh being the Amaranth. MK said "Close"
The problem is that this word came just after blai5000 said :
we have Aka as the one who dreamt the dream that Tamriel is in, but we're supposed to be looking for something past that.
Finally, in the memosp[censored] IRL, MK said that Dovahkiin would be "a good name" and that when we would find who the Amaranth is, it would be "satisfying".
Now, the theories. A lot of ideas have been throwned, based of character said to be dreaming, or some other things. I only list here the theories "usable", thus bringing new things to lore, and having very solid basis.
1) Why are you wondering who is a plant?
The Amaranth in the Elder Scrolls isn't exactly a plant. Basically, we can say (thanks to vehk's taching, Vivec Sermons, Mankar Commentaries, the Loveletter and some other) that :
- The Elder Scrolls world is the Dream of an entity, the Godhead. The principal metaphor used for it is that it is a god in sensory deprivation, and whose dream are Anu, Padomay, the daedra and aedra...
- The character, thus, are only a "dream". Being able to realize that, and to keep your individuality is reaching CHIM, and make you able to have "superpowers"
- The Amaranth would be someone who managed to enter in sensory deprtivation, a bit like the Godhead. As his senses cannot receive any information, he is cut from the rest of the world. Moreover, it is a "goddly being", who begins himself to dream a new World.
2) Numerology
The Numbers MK gave seemed to be important (even if he said we woul ignore some of them. it doesn't mean we would be able to find the Amaranth without)
The Numbers come from the 29th Sermon. :
1. The Dragon Break, or the Tower. 1 : "I"/1 is the Tower. We have another use of the Tower, causing the Dragon Break.
2. The Enantiomorph. 68 : 1+1. The Enantiomorph, two people. And often with a Dragon break. A King, A Rebel, indistinguishable except for the Witness. They can switch places, and they create something new, often a gradient lower.
3. The Invisible Gate, ALMSIVI. 112 : The Tribunal (ALMSIVI, Talos) is there for the secret Gate leading to the Amaranth.
'Look at the majesty sideways and all you see is the Tower, which our ancestors made idols from. Look at its center and all you see is the begotten hole, second serpent, womb-ready for the Right Reaching, exact and without enchantment.''The heart of the second serpent holds the secret triangular gate.''Look at the secret triangular gate sideways and you see the secret Tower.'The secret Tower within the Tower is the shape of the only name of God, I.'
4. The Corners of House of Troubles. 242 : Bal, Sheo Malac and Dagon for Almsivi, maybe they change for Talos
4.5 appears in the Hunt of The Amaranth.
5. The Corners of the World. 100 : Depends on the interpretation. We have nothing sure about it (5 continents, 5 new Ways)
6. The Walking Ways. 266
The Ways to Heaven; Six different ways to reach Amaranth, and/or the six step of the Way : Egg, image, Man, God, City, State
7. The Sword at the Center. 39
'The magical cross is an integration of the worth of mortals at the expense of their spirits. Surround it with the triangle and you begin to see the Triune house. It becomes divided into corners, which are ruled by our brethren, the Four Corners: BAL DAGON MALAC SHEOG. Rotate the triangle and you pierce the heart of the Beginning Place, the foul lie, the testament of the irrefutable-for-a-span'
You have a I, which become a master(Vive, Talos maybe Nerevar), 11, and makes a Crux, +. You surround it with Triangles (Almsivi or TALOS Tribunal) and have a square divided in four. If you rotate the triangle, the corner of the house of trouble pierce the master at the center. The Spokes (aedra for Talos) stop the triangles of rotating.
All of this is makig a Wheel : sideway, it is a I, and ou can see at the center of the side the secret gate.
The sword is the cross and ALMSIVI is the Triune house around it. If there is to be an end I must be removed.
8. The Wheel, or the Eight Givers. 484
The Spokes, the aedra. ok.
9. The Missing. 11
Usually seen as Lorkhan, the Missing God. remember that 7=9-2, the missing privated of the Enantiomorph. Or The Missing Witness, 2+9 create a Master.
10. The Tribes of the Altmer. 140
11. The Number of the Master. 102
Masters are those on the Walking Ways who can go at the center. Vivec, Lorkhan, Talos, Nerevar. Most of them reached CHIM, but some may have taken other Ways.
The example of CHIM is when you manage to have 1+(-1)=11
12. The Heavens. 379
Reach Heaven by Violence. 9+3, The Sword at the center helped by a Tribunal.
13. The Serpent. 36
The Second Serpent is where the secret door is hidden. The frst is Lorkhan, the Second Serpent, THE Serpant, is the scaled Blancket, the constellation. Linked to SITHISIT
14. The King's Cough. 32
Probably CHIM : 11+3, a Master supported by a Tribunal. It is the "breathing of Royalty" of talos, whose throat were cut.
15. The Redeeming Force. 110
A link with Thu'Um ?
16. The Acceptable Blasphemes. 12
from the Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st Edition. It's the Daedra, the 16 Voids between the 8 Gift Limbs of the Aedra.
17. The Hurling Disk. 283
18-1=17 : The Hurling Disk happens during the ragon Break, when the Mnemoli, failed/memory of faile Amaranth return to Nirn. They have almost reached 18, but failed/abandonned at 17.
18. The Egg, or Six Times the Wise.
Probably the "New Amaranth", or one of the Steps. it is the end of the numbers 29, 2, 9, 11, 7, 18 and 4.5 messing up.
Even if Vivec was an egg, it is probably soeone different, as Vehk is part of 3, the Tribunal, and becomes 7, the Sword at the center (Sermons). Now, we are nearly sure he is 17, a Mnemoli, nearly a 18.
19. The Provisional House. 258
Vivec then built the Provisional House at the Center of the Secret Door.
This house is linked to the vision :
Vivec then saw the moths that would come from the starry heart, bringing with them dust more horrible than the ash of Red Mountain. He saw the twin head of a ruling king who had no equivalent. And eight imperfections rubbed into precious stones, set into a crown that looked like shackles, which he understood to be the twin crowns of the two-headed king. And a river that fed into the mouth of the two-headed king, because he contained multitudes.
Might be talos, the one able to hold the center that cannot hold.
20. The Lunar Lattice. 425
A link with lunar currency (souls of Dead (and thus parts of Ehlnofeys) used as currency)?
21. The Womb. 13
Where the Egg, the first step, comes from.
22. Unknown. 453
It is the same to me.
23. The Hollow Prophet. 54
24. The Star Wound. 44
The "Star-wounded East" seems to be Morrowind.
25. The Emperor. 239
26. The Rogue Plane. 81
The rogue plane is Baan Dar as per the cosmology article on TIL.
27. The Secret Fire. 120
Gandalf?
No :
Mephala and Azura are the twin gates of tradition and Boethiah is the secret flame.
The fire is mine: let it consume thee,
And make a secret door
At the altar of Padhome,
In the House of Boet-hi-Ah
Where we become safe
And looked after.'
Linked with http://www.imperial-library.info/content/thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-nineteen?
28. The Drowned Lamp. 8
SITHSIT. Maybe only the original observer, maybe the thing that nearly reached Amaranth and made the secret door available, maybe something in sensry deprivation but not enough Amarantish, maybe an echo of the Amaranth 29 like Sithis and PSJJJ, maybe the Amaranth.
29. The Captive Sage. 217
The sage in sensory Deprivation. What the Amaranth must become. or what the "original Amaranth" is. Or a last trap, the Amaranth being 28 in fact. Or what the new Amaranth must also become.
30. The Scarab. 10
There's a lot of thing about him. seems Lorkhatoshic, is the scarab that transform into the new man who becomes the Amaranth, is linked with the HoonDing, Make-Ways God, but also to Mnemoli. And we know she failed.
31. The Listening Frame. 473
Probably what Vivec used on Ysmir
YSMIR, the Dragon of the North, who always appears as a great bearded king, had powers innumerable and echoing. He was grim and dark and the most silent of the invading chieftains, though when he spoke villages were uplifted and thrown into the sea. The Hortator fought him unarmed, grabbing the Dragon's roars by hand until Ysmir's power throat bled. These roars were given to Vivec to bind into an ebony listening frame, which the warrior-poet placed on Ysmir's face and ears to drive him mad and drive him away.
32. The False Call. 7
The Calling is What the Dwemer have may used to communicate via telepathy/radio. It may be also the thing they used to reperat the people who had to be sent into Numidium. False walking Way, if we heard Vivec.
33. The Anticipations. 234
3 (Tribunal) is said to follow 3 (the Anticipations). Some things let think that the Anticipation is a real thing, but more between kalpa - Almsivi came too early, because this kalpas risks to have no end.
34. The Lawless Grammar. 2
The 100% Word Way? What The Tsaesci are looking for?
35. The Prison-Shirt. 191
Where the Velothi Mystic, a captive sage, is held?
36. The Hours. 364
The 36 Sermons is the Book of Hors.
What is really important is that these numbers interact.
29. 2. 9. 11. 7. 18.
29 (The "Old Amaranth" or the one creating the path) leads to 2 ( a Enantiomorph) and a Missing (Witness?) (9). This create a Master, who goes at the Center, and Become the Egg/helps the Egg to become the "New Amaranth" by passing the Secret gate.
11 is also created with CHIM, 1-1=11.
3) Mnemoli, Memory, Orphan Stars, Orphan Dogs
We have (old?) news about them.
Vehk's Teaching :
"...Of special note is the Blue Star, which the Alesstics call ‘Mnemoli', that runs through this part of the Aurbis every untime. The psijiics hold it in much reverence, and many of their folk make pilgrimages to Veloth when it appears because a mountain there catches fire at its passing. This mountain is reputed to be one of the last refuges of the Dwemer before they departed from this world...
Like many things they cannot explain, the middle dawn is merely another excuse to declare good omens and portents, but unto you it should be known as the Hurling Disk, numbered seventeen...
"...according to the texts, Mnemoli is a wayward child of ANU, one of a pantheon of forgotten deities known as the ‘Star Orphans'... a tribe of gods and goddesses that apparently felt abandoned when the Sun Withdrew from the World-Making. Like many of her siblings, Mnemoli is both confused and delighted with the Aurbis, and explores its five quarters as best she can without the help and regulation of worship, which are not needed (by which I mean, always there) during breakings of the sideways wheel...
Mankar Commentaries :
"Eat or bleed dry the gone-forlorn and gain that small will that led them to walk the path of Godhead at the first. Spit out or burn to the side that which made them delay. Know them as the Mnemoli."
That is your ward against the Mnemoli. They run blue, through noise, and shine only when the earth trembles with the eruption of the newly-mantled. Tell them "Go! GHARTOK AL MNEM! God is come! NUMI MORA! NUM DALAE MNEM!"
MK :
Mnemolic magic is related to the "Star Orphans", gods and heroes and demons that live between creations, which can include those reality-bending burps known as Dragon Breaks. Think of them as the all-stars between kalpas, if that helps. (That probably doesn't help at all, really.)
What's up with the Blue Star itself? That's a good little hidden bit that I don't want to ruin. Someone go find it.
Mnemoli (as Mankar Camoran calls them), Orphan Stars, come during Dragon Break. And they are the Hurling Disk, 17.
The (New?) Amaranth is 18. They are 18+ (-1).
A bit like Chim is 1+(-1)=11 and Zero Sum is 1+(-1)=0, sthey seem to have fallen, failed, or abandonned.
Camoran says that they "follow the path of the Godhead", and should be avoided...
All link them to be failed Amaranth, or the Memory of failed Amaranth. They are out of time, and can only come when time is broken. Coming to the Red Mountain is coming to Lorkhan, the one enabling the Ways to Amaranth.
Even if they are Anuic (here, Anuic can be seen as meaning that they are totally static now, live near Aetherius, but they take all the occasion to come back)
We leanr other things about C0DA and time ;
Adamantine Tower is Akatosh(time) Spaceship (http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride), let him come (from probably one of the 12 Worlds of creation) to Nirn. In his spaceship, Elder Scrolls, which know all that happen, except during Dragon Break.
C0Da seems to be link to the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride, breaks like time, record data like Scrolls. Maybe C0DA Digitals and Aka Jills are linked.
Then, in the Loveletter
The C0DA broke when Twice Vehk appeared again from Aether
Vivec can only come when the C0DA break, during a Dragon/C0D breaking. There's the presence of Memory, (Mnemoli), whose audience is given by... breaking the C0DA, probably.
The Digitals say we come from another star, but so many have forgotten. I have not, for my lineage granted me audience with Memory
When one visits Memory, you become filled with the first ideas of the Lunar God, and see the trap within the trap. Vehk knows it at this point, and sees for all of you, and realizes the need for treaty: avenue of escape, first stone.
4) Shezzar = Akatosh. "Lorkhatosh"
For those who haven't read it yet, MK explains http://www.imperial-library.info/ForumArchives/AmuletAmulet.html why in some versions it is Shezzar who put Alessia in the Amulet of Kings to Alessia, and in some Akatosh.
Akatosh is Shezzar. Look at http://uesp.net/wiki/File:OB-Window-Akatosh.jpg. Dragon, and Human. It is perhgaps the fusion enantiomrphic of Aka(tosh) and lorkhan, the Mantling of lorkhan by Aka(Tosh)... Even if, in fact, when we say Akatosh or Shezzar, it is the same thing and may use some ither term like Aka/ Aka-Tusk and Lorkhan, when this entity is used in the discussions it is often referenced as "Lorkhatosh".
Of course, Aka hasn't stopped to do personal things becaus he isn't only himself. He was already at the same time Alduin, Akatosh, and Auri-El, thus, another face... Sometimes, regarding them as "The Dragon God of time" is enough, sometimes we must divide.
We have, for example, a distinction between Lorkhan's Avatar and Shezzarine (The avatars seems to be redundant (they aren't, the people listed are themsleves multiple and one), but don't list Pelinal, Shezzarine)
5) Reach Heaven by Violence
The (impossible to summarize) "What is love threads. http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1443590-what-is-love/, http://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/18gt8w/what_is_love/
A lot of links with Aleister Crowley are made, and bring a new light on what the love in TES (and, above all, Amaranth's love).
6) SITHISIT, Sithis is it?
This was regarded as the best theory for some times, and brought interesting things.
rotten explains a lot of thing about it in his http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1439871-amaranth-submission/, I will try to sum up some of the direct anolysis of TES lore (the rest is still TES anolysis, but far less direct), plus some other reflexions.
The link between the original Witness and the Amaranth has to be made. It isn't even sure that this Witness is the Amaranth. What is interesting is that "SITHISIT" is and is not this witness, at the same time.
Echoes
The next concept we're going to discuss is the phenomena that results from the act of creation. Every entity and event in the creation of the Aurbis is echoed on progressively smaller scales as time goes on.
After the original creation, when Anu and Padomay create Aurbis, the known universe, similar interactions between echoes of Anu and Padomay produce the rest of the universe. The echo of the Void, Oblivion, becomes the gradient within which the echo of Aetherius, Mundus, is created. Anu and Padomay become echoed as well in the forms of Anuiel and Sithis, and again as Auri-El and Lorkhan.
Sensory Deprivation
I think it might be worthwhile to discuss the concept of sensory deprivation. It's not a well-known phenomena.
The fastest way of explaining it is that Sensory Deprivation removes all forms (or as many as possible) of stimulus from a human being. Deprived of their senses, the human mind starts to hallucinate, to create its own, because it cannot function properly without some form of input.
36 Sermons :
Vivec says unto the Hortator remember the words of Vivec.
UNDERSTAND THAT SITHISIT STILL TRAVELS
IN A PHOSPHORESCENT MIRROR OF THE SKY
DROWNED AND SMILING
INTERMITTENT HOPES ENOUGH
TO ANSWER ALL THE THINGS
NOT YET QUERIED
UNDERSTAND THAT SITHISIT STILL TRAVELS
IN A PHOSPHORESCENT MIRROR OF THE SKY
DROWNED AND SMILING
INTERMITTENT HOPES ENOUGH
TO ANSWER ALL THE THINGS
NOT YET QUERIED
We have learned from the 36 Lessons and the Loveletter that the future Amaranth is a dreamer, an entity that exists inside a void, alone and deprived of its senses. It is like Sermon 28's Captive Sage, trapped in a state of sensory deprivation. And in its loneliness it becomes so desperate for stimulus, for love, it starts to hallucinate.
This is a point that any entity can reach, God or Man. But the Dreamer is an entity of such tremendous power that its dreams become reality, a reality that it loves completely.
There are a number of metaphors you can use to describe such an entity. Kirkbride hinted that the Enantiomorphic Witness is "blinded or maimed," killed in order to collapse the waveform, to which Lady Nerevar added "Sensory Deprivation?" But as we've already discussed, a person might hallucinate after enough time in a sensory deprivation tank, and floating in water can be creatively thought of as drowning. Drowning leads us to Sensory Deprivation which leads us to the Captive Sage.
C0DA Digitals have confirmed that a subject in sensory deprivation begins to hallucinate after only twenty minutes. Scale unto this along the magical spectrum and maintenance of time, which is forever, and you begin to see the Lunar God’s failure as Greatest Gift. As above, “This is the love of God.”
Take a hallucinating subject in sensory deprivation and scale that subject all the way up the gradients and you see the result of Lorkhan's "failure." What does a supremely powerful being do when he hallucinates in a state of sensory deprivation?
A Star is a distant light which shines brightly in the night sky. It shines without heat, like a lamp, because it is so far away, and so it is phosphorescent. The sky reflected in the sea at night is like an image reflected in a mirror, so the sea can be considered a mirror of the sky. A light below the surface is drowning, immersed in water.
If this drowned lamp is our Amaranth, then it is dreaming, and so it is also smiling because it is in love with its dream. From the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel:
Hallucinations become lucid under His eye and therefore, like all parents of their children, the Amaranth cherishes and adores all that is come from Him.
Perhaps a http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070126014943/oblivion/images/c/cc/Sithis.jpg will be of some use. Examine the statue of Sithis in the Dark Brotherhood hideout in Oblivion. Notice its heart is missing? This is because SITHISIT is indivisibly joined with Lorkhan, and when Lorkhan's heart was removed, so was Sithis'. Its head is wrapped tightly because it is in a state of sensory deprivation, like the Captive Sage in Sermon 28 and 29.
The drowned lamp known as SITHISIT is our missing witness. The Captive Sage hallucinates in numbers, the building-blocks of reality. A higher being would dream numbers on such a scale that it would dream its own reality, as is the Amaranth's onus. And in so doing, I'm thinking that SITHISIT acts as the echo of the Godhead, his mirror image.
Ok, the Drwoned Lamp is 28, not 29. And it is probable that the Amaranth isn't the original Witness.
But if we look closer, often, in the TES, when two things have different names, they aren't exactly the same.
And we have at least two Sithis recorded (the Void, and the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/source-chaoshttp://www.imperial-library.info/content/source-chaos when a nihilist sect of the already doom-ridden Chimeri merged (under Mephala’s tutelage) Daedric elements with the Inexpressible Action that was Padomay), plus PSJJJJ/PSJJJ (3 or 4 J, depending on where it is written) and finally SITHISIT.
The "first Sithis", Void, who is the Original witness, and is probably the "Void Outside the Aurbis" which will make the Amaranth able to enter in sensory deprivation.
The "second Sithis", Concept of change/chaos/soul of Padomay.If there's one who interact a bit with Tamriel, it is him.
SITHISIT, the drowned Lamp 28, linked to the second sepent and the secret Gate which will let the "(new) Amaranth" go. He isn't exactly the the Amaranth, but may come from him by a I or Dragon Breaking (29-1=28)
We have still PSJJJ. Revered by the Psijics, with "Old Ways (see later). but it is Anu "doing something". Why, if what he has done was only creating world (opposed to Old Ways, they all try to reach decreation)?
And if they are Old Ways, it is because they have been used. By who? probably PSJJJ. The only thing on tamriel of him is PSJJJ, an echo. The three other Sithis would be subgradient echoing his actions, because he has never been there. They are one but they are different.
7) Nerevarine : The Return
Whether Sithis/PSJJJ is or not the Amaranth, SITHISIT opens the gates to 29, or/and to 18. The Nerevarine is 11 a Master, and adding an egge thanks to a Tribunal and Walking Ways (3*6=18), the Sword at the Center opens the gate and makes possible 11+18=29.
remark that the center cannot hold, and that Vivec isn't at the center any more (all let think that) ; talos use Spokes, Divines, to stay, but it is harder and harder.
There's two theories for me : PSJJJ isn't the Amarnath, and the nerevarine has already passed the gate.
PSJJJ is the Amaranth, and the Nerevarine has either one step or two to pass, or to wait for a Dragon break, which will make the Hurling Disk (nearly 18), and makes the Serpent constellation brighter and brighter.
There's also the fact that the goal may be that all dunmer reach the Amarnaht, as one soul, thaks to the Endeavour, by "making the Experience of the Godhead" on a path "tempered by those who failed". Nerevar whould be the one showing, Vivec the one opening the Way. The Dunmer, one folk conscient of this, have all there individual culture thanks to the system of house (given by SITHISIT)
We can draw a parallel with HoonDing and te Yokudans ;
I know how you think now, at this moment, that there are no paths except for the drowned lamp
The HoonDing is both Sword and Crown, makes Ways for Redguards, thus may be at the center and open the way. One can wonder who has to show to the Redguard how to take the Way.
Second option, Talos thanks to his Tribunal and his Spokes is at the Center, and the HoonDing must show the Way.
Don't forget that the HoonDing is linked to the Scarab (Steed) Constellation, that Leki might be Mnemoli (blue star) and that the Scarab "transfroms into the New man", and "the New man becomes god becomes Amaranth)
Ok, I let the other talk about the Nerevarine :
So I'm going to go bullet point style and not link/quote all the relevant clues unless someone asks for it later. Most of the people still involved in the hunt know them by heart and I'd rather save you all the trouble of reading a lengthy post. Here we go:
1. MK said Nerevarine/Nerevar was his favorite character.
2. MK said that when we found the Amaranth, it would be a satisfying answer. The Nerevarine going of to Akavir is about as unsatisfying of a conclusion to that story as we could have gotten.
3. MK said that the Amaranth had been a named entity for a long time and didn't appear only in obscure texts.
4. The Nerevarine was the target of the 36 Lessons of Vivec, the only place in game where the ideas of Amaranth and CHIM are dealt with at length.
5. Anyone who has CHIM could be said to be the First Witness. CHIM is viewing the Tower, which is the intersection of Anu and Padomay. Thus, anyone with CHIM can be said to have viewed the original enantiomorph.
6. Along with point number 3, we have to consider that Morrowind is MK's baby. It is the game he worked on the most. It is the game in which he came up with the idea of Amaranth. I think there's a really good shot that the Amaranth would come from this game.
7. LadyN said that the 35th Lesson is basically the Loveletter. It is the only place that the idea of Amaranth is fleshed out. Thus, there are only two characters in TES that we know for sure have been exposed to the idea of Amaranth. One is Vivec, MK said its not him. The other is the Nerevarine.
8. The person we are looking for needs to have jumped past the Aurbis (or at least Tamriel for Aqui.) The Nerevarine is Missing in Action. The only information we have about his disappearance is a rumor from Cyrodillic peasants. It just seems very unlikely that the Nerevarine would have left his people to go to Akavir. It seems unlikely that he would leave his people at all unless there was a much bigger reason to do so.
9. The Nerevarine participated in an enantiomorph and thus has all of the qualities of other enantiomorphic figures.
10. The Nerevarine freed the Heart of Lorkhan. Not sure exactly how this relates to to Amaranth. But considering Lorkhan was the one who concieved of the idea of Amaranth, it seems important.
11. Along with point 10 and point 5, we might even be able to say that the Nereveraine was Lorkhan's Shield Thane (or higher up the chain, Padomay, a member of the original enantiomorph.) He was acting out Lorkhan's will by freeing his Heart and destroying those who had defiled it. Being a Shield Thane is one requisite of being a Witness.
12. The whole idea of the Lessons being directed at the player (us, the Nerevarine) and "reaching heaven by violence" in the game just makes this feel right. MK is an outstanding writer and he was playing with a lot of 4th Wall stuff in Morrowind. It makes sense that this would be the conclusion to his brain child.
13. I know people on here are generally adverse to 4th Wall explanations....and I don't think this point is necessary...but I will make it all the same. The Nerevarine, who is us, stopped playing the game. Sensory deprivation? Moreover, he has moved on into a new world. Ours.
14. Along with point 13, remember the story he gave us on the IRC? The whole thing was directed at us. It was almost like the lessons all over again. It was MK reaching out and giving us advice. When Dovahkiin name it Amaranth, MK responded with "good name."
15. I think there are really good connections with the numbers too. Aqui went over it a bit last thread, and I don't feel like rehashing everything. Plus I promised
I'd just like to say that sometimes, MK does use the word "Tamriel" to mean at least the whole Nirn. Source: "Above them all is Tamriel, blue and oceanic, but with no continents at all."
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1369966-i-dont-pretend-to-know-what-love-is-for-everyone/page__st__30
"Tamriel" might even mean the whole Aurbis, judging by some other posts.
Also as an added thought (This is all purely spec, just seeing as Ive read comments pointing to the fate of Nerevarine never being revealed because hes our char); Lets take the reenactment of mundic creation under the morrowind era eye. We know Lorkhan failed chim so that wed know how not to, failed it in the process of creation, and so on. So we know Nerevarine is the Lorkhan element in the Morrowind enantio. Furthermore we know that Azura represents Sithis as she sends Nerevarine, like Sithis did with Lorkhan. Now, we all know Azura has some ties with Lorkhan even if we dont know what specifically, but considering the name of her realm, Im inclined to believe she might be his shadow or something, anyhow theres a link, but as an added thought, we have Coldharbour which is Lyg's previous realm, a broken and beaten tamriel, and in moonshadow we have the complete opposite, its blindingly beautiful and has a silver city somewhere in it, if we take it as a beautiful version of tamriel that could be interesting.
Following these links and remembering the 7 reincarnation cycle of Lorkhan, lets look at Nerevarine's, seven letters as well, 6 failed incarnates, 1 successful. Lets assume that this is the right way to think of it. The last one is succesful. So Lor'khan's last reincarnation must succeed in whatever way its meant to. As a stupid thought, shouldnt this reincarnation with full advantage of Lorkhan's power up until his reincarnation status go through the same chain? Did Azura really send 6 she might know would fail accidentaly or was it on purpose? I lost my train of thought somewhere but Im saying that the Nerevarine=Lor'khans final reincarnation.
Anyhow, continuing on that, we know Lorkhan built the amaranth system for the lesser spirits, a way out for them other than perpetual death and erasure. So if Nerevarine IS his final reincarnation itd be fitting hed set this all up for a mortal escape for himself. Although Im kind of skeptic on saying what makes a reincarnation Lorkhan but w/e. If Im basing myself on the nerevarine's cycle, there is no "true" one until the one meant to succeed, the final. Finally, and this part is the one I cant be sure of as the creation of the world is a mess between Aka/Anui-el being the original aedric leader, personally I think its Anui-el but theres a lot of mess left behing either way. Lets look at the Ner/Dagoth enantio as creation of the world/maybe convention/cant be sure. lets remember the part where he failed CHIM on purpose, here the enantiomorph is fulfilled, not [censored] like it was at convention. One wins, witness leaves, catalyst is consumed. We can draw a relatively clear parallel that by simple logic that the enantio is fulfilled, this version is a success, and since it cannot be a failure, this is where he achieves CHIM.
As an extra, maybe going to Akavir is a a metaphor? he goes to dragon-land. Although that kind of gives me reason to believe were in Aka's dream, but anyhow. So yeah, just some thoughts, even though Nerevarine's fate doesnt look like it should ever be revealed.
8) Old Ways, New Ways, Walking Ways
Ok, this is a theory that hasn't been presented a lot, but it is mine, so...
First, a new anolysis of Walking Ways. Maybe The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph. The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man. is an example of each Walking Ways, maybe not. then we have This is the promise of the PSJJJJ: egg, image, man, god, city, state. I serve and am served
The promise of PSJJJ (who made available the secret gate, and thus the Amaranth by subgradience). Here, we have six steps.
We can think that :
- There is only one Way, with Six Steps, and it only lead to CHIM
- We have 6 Ways, but the general steps are the same. CHIM is only one of the Ways.
Now, we'll look closer. The Psijics :
They follow http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Old_Ways.
Now what are these "Old Ways"? Few even in the Psijic, seem to have been taught about it, and the book is a bit "oversimplified".
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/sotha-sils-last-words
As a Psijic of the New Ways, the Dwemer appear to have been most successful in the Endeavor than any mortal. Their Endeavor is not the shared Endeavor of the Old Way. The New Way, so I speak with no REAL title, is the Way in which I have devoted my research to. I find this New Way to be most delightful a study. The Dwemer have taught me more about the "ideals" of the Endeavor than any Psijic could have in 1,000 years. So many questions, so little time. Finding answers appears to be the primary purpose of mortal existence.
Now, we have B, Divayth, Gosleigh...
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/xal-gosleigh-letters
Divayth Fyr, who you may recall from our days at Gwylim, has the whole of the Inner Sea interested in the varied guises of PSJJJJ again. One of his cohorts, who signs only 'B', has pulled all manner of pamphlets to the fore in an effort to get at the heart of the matter. And, though they know it not, the Aurbis is trembling as they near themselves to truth. (Incidentally, I have petitioned the Murder House for a Dram simulacrum, sixth-measure, in case Fyr or 'B'-- a Borgite, perhaps?-- come too close to waking the Sleepers.)
Ok, now, if PSJJJJ/SITHISIT/Sithis is the Amaranth or the thing making it possible :
Psijics revere it. Old Ways seems to have the goal of doing as Sithisit. And so, decreating the World to return to the non subgradiated being, able to reach Amaranth by themsleves. The World stop them from doing it, thus the "destruction of the world" of thalmor and Ayleid, and the Dracochrysalid of Auriel.
The Dwemer are on a New Way. Made possible by Lorkhan, who "failed so we know how not to". The opposition Anu/Padomay would be in fact Old/Naew Ways to Heaven ; Anuic mind isn't against reaching Amaranth, but against New Ways. Why?
Because they can "awake the sleepers". Awaking the godhead, and the sleepers between? If a so long time has passed with no one reaching the Amaranth, it may be for waiting that the new Ways are not dangerous any more. The subgradiience would be to take the secret door inside the serpent without hurting the Godhead, being "smaller"
The Mnemoli would be those who began to take a way, but realized they wasn't subgradiated enough. Thus stopping, and not being really there.
Kama Fyr, who presented the Fall of Baar Dau as the "fall of the City", echo of Landfall, may be right : Vivec stopped before awaking. But as he was advanced on the Ways, it created (or Vivec created) a micro-Landfall.
Why these new Ways? because when one will have pased, he can make the other realize they can, too. For example, the Nerevarine may keep the unity of the dunmer mind, and later, much later, make them pass the door.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/vehks-teaching
For ages the etada grew and shaped and destroyed each other and destroyed each other’s creations. Some were like Lorkhan and discovered the void outside of the Aurbis, though if some saw the Tower I do not know, but I know that, if they did, none held it in such high esteem. In any case, some of those that did see the void created its like inside the Aurbis, but each of these smaller voids sought each other out. Void shall follow void; the etada called it Oblivion.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/imperial-census-daedra-lords
Hermaeus Mora, “the Gardener of Men”, claims that he is one of the oldest Princes, born of thrown-away ideas used during the creation of mortality in the Mundus.
Ok, the daedra tried to use the Ways, and imitated what they understood of the Amaranth, the Void. It was also probably the first idea of Lorkhan : creating a Void, to be in sensory deprivation. But he better understood the Tower, and thought the subgradient, and thus finaly mortality, were necessary.
The daedra are strongly tied to Ways : Bal teaches CHIM to Vivec, Dagon in the Mysterium Xarxes to Mankar, Sheo is perhaps a part of Lorkhan, Boethiah put the dwemer on the Ways (on the Psijic Endeavour), Mephala with his codes explained it, and Azura keeps them on it still in the 4th Era.
However, they are trapped in their Void, and might want that a failed Amaranth occure, awaking the Godhead and reseting the World, giving them a chance to do otherwise.
thus, if they put the Dunmer on the Ways, it was in order that they fail. Vivec changes all, with his Sermons, and as an Orphan Star, changed time with the Lovelleter to avoid this failure, Landfall.
36 Sermons :
Then do not divide, for yet is the stride of SITHISIT quicker than the rush of enemies, and He will sunder the whole for the sake of a shingle.
For we go different, and in thunder. SITHISIT is the start of all true Houses, built against stasis and lazy slaves. Turn from your predilections, broken like false maps.
Vehk is saying to th Dunmer that the House system will make them able to reach SITHSIT, but if they divide, they will fell the landfall. It is what happened at the time of the Loveletter, with the 9 times 9 thrones. The crab, prophet of Landfall, tried to stop them to do this.
For me, the actions of Vivec explains why the redorans defended the whole Morrowind, and made all to keep 5 great house in the council (Dragonborn). Someone received the message.
