Summoning corporeal undead : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:39 pm

Word Merchant Julianos specifically mentioned once, a theory that I found very intriguing and wish to add to Mechanics of Magicka one day.

As Proweler pointed out above, there is a lot of work that goes into the preparation of a corpse for necromantic sevantile usage.

Nonetheless, there doesn't seem to be a lot of work that goes into summoning skeletons, zombies, and/or other forms of undead through spells that, although the creature summoned has necromantic ties, do not seem to be necromantic spells due to being taught by the Mages' Guild post-ban.

Why?

My theory, which is unsupported through text at this time, is that the spells that summon these undead creatures are actually summoning them from Quagmire, the realm of the Daedric Prince of Nightmares, Vaernima.

I state this for two reasons: (1) undead creatures are terrifying to mortals, thus their connection to the fear that Vaernima thrives upon, and (2) the offering that Vaernima needed at her shrine for the Daedric Quest in TES IV is a black soul gem, which clearly has necromantic ties.

So while the summon [undead] spells might summon necromantic subjects, it is not necromancy that pulls them from Oblivion. In the same sense, while necromancers may be able to summon those zombies and such, they are using Conjuration. The shambling zombies, skeletons and "permanent" undead creatures were created with necromancy.

I find the theory highly logical as a workaround explanation for game mechanics.

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:48 pm

I can live with that. Thread over.

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:40 pm

I think they are summoned just like any other creature. They come from another realm. Check out
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Oblivion
Go down to the part that says "Realms not belonging to a specific Daedra" Read up on Soul Cairn. Im guessing they come from there

» Sun May 29, 2011 2:52 am

I don't know where that realm is described in the lore, but I agree that it sounds like a logical place to summon undead from.

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:12 pm

http://www.imperial-library.info/tsobs/part03.shtml is from Battlespire.

And as said before, actually conjuring undead as if they were Daedra doesn't make sense from a lore perspective.

» Sun May 29, 2011 2:39 am

It's probably not much, but the Shrine Sergeant gives a quest to kill a witch and mentions that she "can summon bonewalkers". In a Daedric shrine or in an Egg Mine. And adding to that, there are scrolls for summoning undead, it would be kinda silly if you needed an actual corpse on hand for the scroll to work.

Edit: That aside, I can't see anything wrong with summoning undead or monster from Nirn as opposed to from Oblivion. Last time I checked, Daedra could summon other Daedra while in Oblivion.

» Sun May 29, 2011 2:03 am

Disclaimer: I'm not a lore buff, nor do I claim to be, feel free to correct me.

As a note, uesp.net (meaning take this with a grain of salt) states that Necromancy is "defined as the art of communicating with the dead to predict the future, but in Oblivion this is extended to include the study and the act of raising the dead". Uesp.net (yeah, yeah) also defines Conjuration as the "mental domination of mundane and magical creatures, summoning of otherworldly weapons and armor, and summoning of Daedric or undead servants and powers to serve and protect the caster." We know, thanks especially to the Staff of Worms, that Necromancy is quite different from the summoning of undead. You literally put life into the corpes and control it. Nothing is being summoned, and there's nothing there to be dominated without the use of Necromancy.

In my opinion the only question left to be answered is that of the OP -- where do the summoned undead come from? I think it's safe to say that they aren't substantiated by means of magic based on the available definitons of Conjuration. So the logical conclusion for the lack of lore is that they are summoned from some other plane. Soul Cairn seems like a safe bet to me. I've never played Battlespire before, but it's definition on uesp.net (sue me) seems to make it out as an ideal munitions depot, so to speak.

EDIT: I think it'd be reasonable to think there would be Conjurers capable of dominating such a creature, I just think that Oblivion fails to accurately portray this kind of power in relation to the world.