I can easily infer how summoning Daedra works (using Magicka to draw forth and bind a Daedra while simultaneously forcing it to take physical shape on Mundus) and even how summoning ghosts works (drawing forth lost souls from Oblivion or calling them down from Aetherius for assistance) but is it ever explained in any lore how summoning corporeal undead (skeletons, zombies, etc.) works? Does the caster shape their bodies out of raw Magicka or are there rotting legions somewhere that the caster teleports the bodies from?

And if there is no lore, post your theories. Maybe we can work this up into a proper thread about the mechanics of Magicka in general.

I believe we talked about this some time ago and there were a lot of interesting theories about it.

Personally I say that the mage "builds" up a body for the soul which he wants to summon and thereby gets his minion.

It's all just a gameplay substitute for having a horde of minions around.

1. In Oblivion Necromancers exclusively summon Undead.

2. In Oblivion Conjurers exclusively summon Daedra.

3. Since 1&2 are both conjuration there is no reason for such separation unless one they're not both conjuration.

4. http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/corpse_preparation.shtml describes a rather cumbersome process of creating a skeleton. Not something that would make sense when they could just be summoned.

5. In Morrowind when confronting Durgra-Bol, she teaches you Necromancy in the form of a summon skeleton spell.

6. The whole taboo against Necromancy doesn't make sense if they were just Daedra summoned into shape or some other explanation that doesn't actually involve the really disturbing practice of bringing death people to live.

7. Conjuration has also been abused for spells like Call Bear and Call Wolf or summon Dwemer Sphere centurion. Their context (Soltheim and a book about Animuculi construction) suggests that you're just calling one from around the environment or repairing/building one.

Anything else is decidedly [censored].

I've been wondering that too.
And i came to decision, that Beth actually didn't had much thoughts about that.
Summoning zombies and skeletons is common to many role-playing games.
Elder Scrolls is no exclusion.
Its just that, as it is. -Rotting meat from nowhere. :shrug:

I'd imagine it's something like that, summoning zombies and skeletons is probably just there for gameplay purposes, in reality, if you want a skeleton to do your bidding, you'd probably need necromancy.

i thought the descriptions say you're summoning them from another plane (or an astral plane), and in doing so, you dominate them. from what plane, who knows.

there is probably a difference in summoning undead, and animating undead, where the former is temporary, and the latter requires more time but is permanent.

I forget which plane but I was certain there was one that had undead roaming around that could've been a possible source for undead summoning. This seemed valid to me since necromancers both had permanent undead hanging around and summoned ones as well. Then there's the game mechanics view and like proweler said in Morrowind an Orc says she'll teach you a Necromancy spell and it comes in the form of summon undead. Any explanation works for me since there's enough sense in whatever's right, but there's only one thing that really bothers me and has bothered me ever since the first time I witnessed it:

How does one summon a lich? Where would you get a lich from? If a lich dies in combat did you just 'port in some random magister who's (un)life is now over because you were playing around with the Gatekeeper? The only reason so far that seems plausible is that master conjurers can forcefully summon liches to them because they're now a type of undead and can't resist for long, and hopefully no one gets the idea to start killing off every lich that is summoned to rid the world of them. It still doesn't sit right with me; I'd rather that spell not be in Oblivion at all unless there's something I'm missing that justifies being able to summon what looks like a lich and how this doesn't become a problem in the Elder Scrolls world.

I'm going with gameplay mechanics on this one.

If you would summon an undead creature from a Plane(t) then it would probably be from the Necromancers' Moon.

Oh god not this discussion again, we've been at this like three times already :facepalm:

shouldn't that be In Mundus because isn't mundus the realm of reality that encompasses nirn? so it would be In Mundus and on Nirn, but I digress.

The skill conjuration in my opinion is just an over-simplification of several of similar magical arts. You call it all conjuration because fundamentally thats what your doing in each case, that and it would be kind of absurd to have Necromancy, Daedric Summoning, and Misc. Summoning for individual skills. Bethesda thinks about the big picture and the big picture is it's easier for them and us to simplify such things.

I recall reading a text in the Imperial Library about just such a thing. Daedra come from the plane of Oblivion, they are summoned through conjuration and their animus is used a blueprint for their physical form on this plane, Though as we all know in Oblivion were the Daedra's Animus remains is where it would be strongest but having been for lack better terminology Teleported/cloned into Mundus it is weaker. A lot like taking a beer and pouring part of that beer into a different glass then filling the rest up with water. Thus it is one capability that conjuration possess is to bring forth Daedra from Oblivion.

Necromancy is another capability of the skill we have come to know as Conjuration. Summoning ghosts and what not is simply calling forth a spirit from the ethereal plane and binding it's existence to Mundus. Now theoretically summoning a skeleton is not as difficult as one would think, calling forth a spirit from the ethereal plane and producing a physical form for it can either be a product of the skill of one's power in creating things from nothing or simply making a full skeleton pop from one place to another as a vessel to hold the newly bound soul. Though I'm inclined to believe it's more just making a temporary skeleton and not teleporting an already assembled one from some bone horde since everything goes poof upon destruction. I however do agree that the spell to conjure a Lich should never have been put into the game since Lich's in elder scrolls lore are far too dangerous, unpredictable, uncontrollable, intelligent, powerful, and of course skilled to just simply be conjured up from thin air and bound to the will of whoever conjured it. After all in order to control what one conjures it either must have control of it's soul or have superior willpower. After all we have seen that magic users can lose control of their conjured servants for underestimating their tenacity and cunning. Lich's must be highly intelligent and powerful to learn, perform, and survive the ritual of lichdom. Both of those two traits must be at a level that would be far too great to just be summoned and bound like a lowly clannfear.

Summoning a bears, wolves, and dwemer constructs could easily fall under a simple replication conjuration. Like cloning a simple creature only when cloned it is unstable magicka hence why when destroyed it vanishes. All eaisly explained when looked at from an open minded perspective.

That's my take. Don't rip me a new one please =)

I don't think constructing a skeleton atom by atom is all that easy, but I guess since Magicka's mechanics are so ill-defined anyway I guess I can see that, especially if it's just a temporary construction held together by magicka. Hell, you can create fire at will without any source of fuel or heat, so why not?

Summoning liches: I don't see a problem. If I can summon wraiths and other powerful undead, I don't see why I can't summon a lich who was weak enough to be destroyed and bind it to my will. There's a reason it has the highest base cost of any spell effect in the game.

True. I think the best way for the necromancy to work is for the necromancer to put the skeleton together in his lab, then place a mark on him with mysticism and when in the field cast call to bring the skeleton to the mage. Raising a zombie on the spot can be done from a corpse, but since it's just their flesh holding the animated bones together they are less dependable the longer you use them.

please lets not redo this discussion, this link will explain everything you could possibly think of about necromancy.

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1003460

I've noticed that the visual effects between conjured Undead and Daedra are different; daedra have a red swirly deal around the summon spot, while Undead have this sort of wormhole portal thing above them.

The "Schools of Magic" are artificial institutions anyway. All the "Absorb" effects went from Mysticism to Restoration between MW and OB, and the Damage Weapon/Armor could just as easily be classed as Alteration spells.

Once again check the link :facepalm:

necromancy is an art, not a school. the imperial mage guild is responsible for the colleges of magic (basically their skill naming conventions). necromancy not doubt involves different effects from the schools. another example would be the art of witchcraft performed by the witches in high rock, involving spells like polymorphing, weather influence like winds, etc. it's not doubt that the mages guild bastardizes many arts by serperating their effects into their own school structure.

anyways, since many have died in the history of TES, with their corpses absorbed into the mundus and perhaps aetherius, i doubt see why it's not a possibility that the magic used to summon an undead does not tap into that particular process of decay.

or perhaps, the summon spells that exist today is possible due to rampant necromancy in the past, where the summons are now a product of the animated undead that were destroyed or banished, decaying back into their elements. hince these spells are frowned upon, even though they do not require the corpse preparation, they still only function due to the vile acts performed in the past.

It's best to remember the text of http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/black_arts_on_trial.shtml, specifically that :



So the distinction is artificial, but with a bright-line drawn. Simply summoning the undead isn't considered necromancy not because it avoids using magic on the dead or dying -- it aims for these goals -- but because it does not require the drawing of blood or jumping into darkness and has been tested since the days of Galerion, the same as a Shield or elemental Shield spell is a different school than a Resist Damage spell or Summon Armor spell, all of which achieve the same purpose but do so through different underlying means. The Shield spell alters the underlying substance of your body or the air surrounding your body, the Resist Damage spell operates by preemptive healing, and the Summor Armor spell essentially squishes a Daedra into a nice, fun-sized chest plate. In that way, summoning the dead through a Summon Skeleton's underlying mechanics are far more similar to summoning a Daedra -- reach out into others plane, grab a spirit soaked in the magicka constantly spinning past the borders Magnus planned and which separate Nirn from Oblivion, and let them select a form that fits them. Simple, clean, with no harm done to the caster. Meanwhile, even the use of a Necromantic artifact which had already been empowered, such as in Palla, sent a healthy student into a fever unable to leave his bed for days.

That said, for the sake of sanity, it's best to assume that Preparation of the Corpse is referring to the construction of intelligent, long-lasting undead. Short-term conjuration spells don't and haven't required the underlying physical components (whether spare ectoplasm or bones), do not leave the underlying corpse behind upon destruction of the spell, or benefit from murder (although they may have that particular aim).

Of course, another theme is that books and statements tend to be at best biased and at worst, wildly incorrect, especially on the matters of popular history or the dark arts, so any explanation that fits the observed reality is supposed to come first in terms of cannon.

Except that it's nonsense. That's the whole problem with those mechanics. The excerpt from the Black Arts on Trial makes sense for the ancestor Ghost because it's mostly incorporeal. It makes sense because it actually comes from somewhere. The assumption that somehow you can purl some magical swirlies into Mundus and coincidently give them the shape of a skeleton or any other undead is stretching it.

See specifically points 1&2&3&7 that I've made above.

I think you've got a problem with assertion 3, though. There are a lot of different reasons to segregate what spells you select. A number of the priests do not use any drain spells despite knowing restoration, the very nature of the Atronachs make them reliant on only one spell effect in the school of Destruction, and it's a rare Imp that uses Damage Attribute or rusts armor. Calminada uses frost and damage equipments spells, but it's hard to call fire and shock a different school because she segregates it. That's not because they are inherently different capabilities for the purposes of the Mage's Guild's (extremely artificial) definitions, but because there are different skills and demands within any one group. That's likely near as true, if not truer, for Necromancers as Atronachs. At least one Daedra actively opposes any form of necromancy, and others at least seem vague on the matter or have natures opposed to the topic (or in the case of Sheogorath, might well change their minds every few minutes). Necromancers could also simply prefer the more ordered and obedient nature of undead over the chaotic and often unreliable nature of daedra. Or a thousand other things

This leaves assertion 7, but the nature of both Oblivion and Nirn make this almost a confusing question. Ghosts, after all, are not merely spirits from or intended to go to a different plane, but also made of ectoplasm. Conjured Armor is not merely magicka, but also the spirit of a Daedra smashed and shaped into a convenient form -- and given its properties, may well include no small amount of ebony. The concept of creating things from magicka alone is not exactly unreasonable given the setting. Moreover, the nature of Nirn, defined by perceptions and the aspects of the Earthbones shaping those perceptions, make a universalized result within the game's logic.

it could just be the the decayed energies of a previously animated skeleton. who knows.

Which begs the question: how was that one raised?

from a previous necromancer that did the full ritual of binding a permanent undead minion. over the eras, who knows how many skeleton servants were created and destroyed, perhaps it was newer necromancers that tapped into the decayed energy of previous servants to exploit.

sounds jumbled and lame, like a zombie, but woht eva

I think there needs to be a relationship between summoning and locations, ie, if you are by a graveyard you can summon zombies and skeletons either easier, or with a lower magicka cost. Daedra would be attached to daedric shrines.

Now, there's a few ways to do this. I kind of like the idea of having to summon a daedra at leas the first time at a shrine, until it "binds" to you. Then, you are able to call it forth from that point on. I also would like if you summoned a creature, but the spell cost would not regenerate until the conjured being died, however the the summon would not disappear either. So basically you would walk around with a semi permanent pet, with a slightly reduced magicka bar. That way, you could summon an army of creatures, but then have no magick to cast other spells with.