Then dont go to your stat page? Problem solved. You would want the game to pick your perks for you?


You must have never played D&D, where cobbling is a skill. Honestly I want Morrowind's skill set.

Its not so much as not looking at the skill sheet. They could have one skill or one hundred, it wouldn't matter in the end. As long as you get better as you do something, you could do almost anything imaginable, and there is enough room to play how you want to, a game is an rpg.

1.
being more than is sufficient or required; excessive.
2.
unnecessary or needless.

Let's first look at daggerfall. It had over 30 skills and one of them was swimming. Do you really want to have swimming as a skill? Of course, no one complains about it being removed as a skill and combined with athletics. This whole "The more skills the better." crap is just trying to match things to Morrowind. That's exactly what it is, don't complain that I just made it off the top of my head. Everyone uses Morrowind as an example of what it should be but Morrowind was LESS skills then Daggerfall and most of those skills were actually just removed from the game instead of put somewhere else. There were over 10 skills removed from Daggerfall to Morrowind, there were 6 removed from Morrowind to Oblivion and all but one of those skills were either consolidated into another skill or put somewhere else in the game. Now in Skyrim there are 3 less skills and all of them all being put somewhere else in the game.

I see people saying "What makes an RPG is stats and numbers and dice rolls" and that isn't the truth at all. RPGs are Role-playing games. Thus the main aspect is roleplaying in which you make your character how you want. Having innumerable skills would be nice but that is unrealistic seeing as how players will only pick the select few of skills that are the best. Why have needless skills when they fit under another skill? There is no point of having acrobatics and athletics when acrobatics is synonymous with athletics. See what is going on here? Why do you need more skills when they fit under something else? It's not that they are taking choices away from you, they are putting the skills together where they make the most sense. You have to realize that there are more choices to customize your character in this game than any other TES game. I don't understand how people can complain that they are losing customization when they had to have read what we are getting....

Also, you have to take in account the new leveling system. No one every brings up that 18 skills could be equivalent to 50 skills in Oblivion or Morrowind for all we know. If anyone read, it doesn't work like the old leveling system, you don't get a level every set amount of skill levels, you level depending on what level the skills were that you had raised during that level. So it could probably be possible to level every skill 1 level before you get an overall level, which would gimp you in the game.

In short, people need to realize between the new perks system (which is a blend of the original TES perk system and the original fallout perks system), the new leveling system and new magic system gives you numerous choices and we don't even know at what extent the armor system is yet, which has been confirmed to be more than the fallout armor system so it will probably be between Oblivion's armor system and Morrowinds. The fact of the matter is that there are more choices than any other TES game and that's just the features we know of. So people need to stop being doomsayers and overreacting, when less skills doesn't mean the game is less content or fun, it's just that way when you make it that way which is what most people that loved Morrowind so much did, they played through Oblivion but didn't appreciate it for what it was because they were too busy looking for differences in the game instead of letting them sink into the game and seeing how great it was.

Some skills really do not need to be in the game. While I'm all for more skills, I can totally see there being unnecessary skills, especially with the perk system they're adding which does more to create specialization than a few arbitrary numbers ever will.

Honestly, I have a feeling the 3 skills cut (one confirmed) from the Oblivion -> Skyrim stretch was Mysticism(confirmed) Light and Heavy armor. All 3 are virtually useless and can find their hidden roles fulfilled by merging certain spell effects, or by offering perks to the use of Heavy/Light Armor (Kind of how in NV you have the Perk that gives Critical Hit% and Critical Defense for Light armor).

Of course, there are a few more skills that could be merged to make more useful skills available. For example, I wouldn't argue (Actually support) Mercantile and Speechcraft merging to one skill. Social Acumen. It makes both skills much more valuable and makes sense, as if one is a good speaker, one is likely equally adept at haggling. And if that made room for something like Spear, well, win win win.

Basically, OP needs to think outside the box instead of at the spreadsheet. I'm not saying the skills cut are going to be good, but with a little thought, you can easily justify it, and see that there is possibility for progress through this method.

Attributes cut... If that is indeed true, I don't really see being a good thing. But ever the optimist, it would certainly make balance/challenge easier and certainly wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me. Taking the assumption that attributes have been removed, the design choice for which was probably rendered by looking at Morrowind and Oblivion, and seeing in Morrowind, Attributes are too easily abused (drink 50 Sujamma and one-shot Dagoth Ur) and in Oblivion, attributes were largely useless, never really feeling like they had an impact as much as you'd think, either Hard-capping things like Stamina/Fatigue and Mana, creating this huge discrepancy in usefulness. Basically Strength, willpower and Endurance were the only worthwhile investments.

Well said. :clap:

I'm more worried about other things besides skills and stats.

I bet we don't hear about swimming because some of the players have become depressed in the continual decline in the different builds available. The Daggerfall skill set is the only one where someone could create a merchant. Morrowind came out with a world to support that class, but cut the skills to make the pure class.

And, perhaps some of the older games did manage to do things right. But I guess I will not have to wait long to hear otherwise.


The leveling system sounds better. The magic system sounds better. I disagree with the rest of what you said.

Not to take away from your point, but "swords or spears" is a big deal. :tongue:

OT: As many have already said: Streamlining =/= "Dumbing down".
Better combat =/= An action game.
Less skills =/= not an RPG.
Morrowind =/= RPG Jesus.
"it'sthis thread again"
I mean, I am REALLY tempted to just link TVTropes and point out how well some people around here follow the "They changed it now it svcks" and "Ruined Forever" and "It is easier so it svcks" mentalities.
Edit for humor/improvements.

who called MW a sacrificial lamb?
:poke:

My 2 cents:


Combat Skills (?)
One-handed weapons
Two-handed weapons
Hand to hand
Block
Heavy Armour
Smithing

Magic Skills(?)
Enchanting
Alteration
Restoration
Destruction
Conjuration
Illusion

Stealth Skill(?)
Alchemy
Speechcraft
Sneak
Marksman
athletics
Light Armour

I don't see what's wrong with these, 'no' jumping hmm it's still there it's just merged with run because swimming didn't have it own skill but is just as different, athletics is fine covering all types of movement. Lockpick sneaking and pickpocket again might as well be one and the same if your gunna do one not the other it's not a problem, and all the underhand stuff might as well betogether. Lastly one and two handed is better than blade blunt IMO, it's more intuitive, and it would be nice you can't go down the road of dagger sword spear axe mace claymore ect you'd have a million skills.

Please look at this image. Look up the meaning of the idiom if you don't understand.
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/images/admin/BeatDeadHorse.gif

No, the point is, the original players of TES didn't complain about menial changes nearly as much as people do today even when we actually lost 10 skills in the transition and they are like me, "who cares? We still have plenty of choices and diversity." because that is what it is.



Your entitled to your opinion but more skills doesn't equate to more diversity and content then the current choices we know of in Skyrim.

Fewer skills with quite possibly a lot more diversity through perks.

Oh, boo, everyone stop complaining about changes to the game system and experimentation on Bethesda's part. If you approach the way they handled skills and attributes in Skyrim optimistically, then you might enjoy the game more than if you convince yourself beforehand that the game will svck just because they changed some things. See, the way you make new installments of a series is you change things from the previous installment. Why would we play Skyrim if nothing had been changed from Oblivion, or Morrowind, or whichever game you want to compare Skyrim to? The way I see it, we should approach Skyrim with an open mind: let Bethesda throw whatever game they make at us, play it without any prejudices regarding information about it they give to us leading up to its release, and see what we think of it. I find it's much more enjoyable to play games this way. I love exploring the changes from one game in a series to the next. I like some changes, and dislike others, but that's just a part of gaming. No game is going to be perfect. No game is going to be tailored to one person's desires. Have fun with what they give you, and try not to cause yourself unnecessary frustration.

One of the greatest RPG games of all time, Ultima 7, had 2 skills and 3 stats. I dare anyone to tell me it was an "action" game or that it was somehow a lesser game because of it. Role-playing is about YOU playing a role within a GAME. Not about stats or skills or perks or any of that stuff.

People need to chill out.

I'm going to use D&D as an exmaple.

1st there was the red box(not counting things like chain mail) and there were no skills, eventually they added some proficiencies to the system.
Then there was AD&D and no real skill system was to be found. The DM just ran skill things on the fly.
Then 2e AD&D and the non weapon proficiencies fleshed out a bit, but still a weak sauce skill system
Then 3e. And while the system had its flaws it finally added a skill system. think arena to daggerfall. In the sneaky, sneaky branch you had the move silently and hide in shadows skills. Hey kind of cool, like the thief abilities from earlier edition, and they were counter by listen and spot.
3.5 or maybe it was pathfinder was here and they realized, hide in shadows and move silently basically were the same thing, the ability to sneak up on people requiring 2 rolls just meant an extra chance to scrw up a die roll. Lets make it one skill, the same for the detect part of things.

Did D&D stop becoming a RPG at that point? Was it not a RPG until 3e? And 4e reduced the skill list even further. Now don't get me wrong I think 4e svcks hard as a game, every class feels the same to me, the skills only include the do something list and not fluff things like music, or cooking. But I doubt anyone would say its not a RPG. A crappy RPG sure, but not a RPG not even close.

Rp is all in the mind just like alot of forum worrys...

I believe this place has filled up more than a few threads with suggestions for skill lists, all larger than what we saw in Morrowind. Not going to hear about it much now that Skyrim has been announced with 18 skills, other than complaints, and complaints as are showing up in this thread. But to say that everyone is fine and dandy, even with the Morrowind skill system, is a very belligerent statement.

And yes. I am well aware of my opinion, and of your point.

If we still have all the abilities of previous games, then it doesn't matter. People don't care about the skills per say, only what they attribute to. If acrobatics is gone, but we can still jump really high, then I don't think people will care. Getting rid of game play mechanics is what really worries people.

People seem to focus on the three less skills, and NOT on the addition of the 150+ perks. This leads me to believe that they simply have a defeatist attitude.

I don't often post here, but I feel compelled to share my two cents never-the-less.

I was one such player who considered many of the choices that "stream-lined" Oblivion to be in the wrong direction, first and foremost being the simplification in skills. While I can agree Daggerfall bordered on the excess, I felt either it or Morrowind had a good number of skills, and helped push the player in a direction to specialize in something. This new slew of cuts is only simplifying the game further, and I don't understand why: The Elder Scrolls' complexity is what makes them great, not their simplicity.

I'm not trying to bash the game, and certain elements I think look cool (AI and dual-wielding, and I remain optimistic for the 'Perks' they'll be implementing), but both Skyrim and Oblivion have been a bit of a double-edged sword (Pardon the pun) for me: Each one makes some progress, but ultimately falls shorter than the game it's intending to replace, in my books. Oblivion's combat was leaps and bounds ahead of Morrowind, the on-the-fly magic was great and while not fully realized, the radiant AI was a step in the right direction. But all that was undermined by an uninteresting environment, scaling dungeons and worst of, being less-complex than it's older sibling. And I see the same trend continuing with the fifth entry into the series: The plot looks interesting, dual-wielding sounds awesome and perks have alot of potential, but further cuts to character stats, removal of spell-making and possible removal of attributes are making me personally less and less interested in the franchise, not unlike what Mass Effect 2 did.

Todd never mentined they want to emphasize the RPG part. They just want to streamline the game so there's fewer numbers and more actual gameplay.

To comment on the axing of different things:

Classes: most people play custom classes anyway.
Attributes: most players get that OCD to get 100 of each attribute through abusing the leveling system - what's the point if everyone ends up with the same uber character? Removing attributes will finally kill the plague of power-leveling to god status.
Skills: answer this: what was the real differnce of specializing with a longsword and with an axe in Morrowind? None - both skills only increased damage with a specific weapon type and, what's worse, locked you to it. Skyrim's perk system will do a better job of differentiating characters and weapons than having a skill for each weapon type ever did.

Am I the only damn guy that wants a skill list longer than Fo2 and D&D 3.5 combined?

Seriously though, merging skills is fine, action-RPGs are fun too, and there are still all the old games, plus D&D, to play if you want ludicrous amounts of skills.

Skyrim will be Skyrim, and I wouldn't want to make it any other game.

Inb4 "Fallout without guns"

I completely agree. Having 18 skills seems like a letdown at first, but the 150 perks makes it even more in depth than oblivion, and yes, even morrowind. The 150 skills will probably include specializations in individual weapons and armor times, so it will actually feel like you have about 35 different skills. Plus there is the possiblility of getting perks that make you better with, for example glass armor/weapons. Thats even more detailed! There is nothing to complain about. People just see 18 as a smaller number, ignoring 150.

Well said ,indeed :thumbsup: