Thoughts on rebuilding Oblivion

Greetings!

Been playing Oblivion over a year now. For much of that time the game was blissfully stable, barring an occasional hiccup, faulty mod install or a-bomb attack. Just recently...starting a few weeks ago...my game began getting frequent “Stopped Responding” black screens. I've not yet solved those. Very annoying.

I'm not necessarily looking for easy solutions at this point, but thinking of something far more radical; completely re-doing the game from scratch. My ultimate goal is one of two options; either rebuild it pretty much as-is so that I can ultimately use current saves, or rebuild with at least a few somewhat major differences and start my avatar afresh (from an early starter-dungeon save since I'm happy with his race and looks.). A third option would be to a mixture of the two, a number of changes but still try and continue on with current saves. This last choice is the most personally appealing but would be, I think, the hardest to pull off.

One reason I want to do this is to switch from an OMOD centric install to Bain, which I understand is better at insuring mod compatibility, or at least provides better tools to combat incompatibilities. I've had Wrye Bash installed for ages, but admittedly seldom use it, and never for installation. Heck, I don't even have a Bash Patch. Even now, after a year of installing mods, I find Bain confusing, so will need to find good “Bain-for-Dummies” articles before I feel totally comfortable using it.

For instance, one of my favorite eye-candy / immersion mods is AWLS (Animated Window Lighting System). I'll want that installed from the get-go. OMOD AWLS installation was super easy, with scripts to let me choose the options I wanted. But looking over AWLS file structure (I always prefer creating OMODs using “add folder” rather than “add archive”) I'm very unclear how this would work with Bain. I'm sure it can work with BAIN, since AWLS can be manually installed if one is a glutton for punishment. If anyone has suggestions I'd be happy to see them!

I'd of course keep OBMM and use it for those functions Wrye Bash doesn't provide, or doesn't handle as elegantly. I've always set my load-order manually with OBMM, following BOSS advice (BOSS being run in a separate dummy Oblivion\Data directory containing only ESMs and ESPs). Can I continue doing so, or will Wrye Bash not like that?

What I'd really like to do is have two separate installs of Oblivion on my computer, the current one and a fresh Wrye Bash centric install. Is there some mod or utility that makes this feasible? Or maybe a utility that lets you switch between two modded configurations of the same install?

I've not yet given a lot of thought on specific changes should a start totally afresh. This will be only my second play-through. I've yet to see a burning need for any of the major overhauls – OOO, MMM, FCOM, etc. – so will likely not add them. Not ruling it out, but overhauls aren't a priority. I'm a big fan of mods that add structures, villages, towns, cities, provinces – Bartholm, Castle Seaview, Pride of Wolfs Gate, Villages1.1, Feldscar, VeronaHouse Bloodlines, Elsweyr-Anequina and so on – so will likely keep all those I have and maybe add a few more before all is said and done.

Quest mods are my favorites. Yet I am thinking to jettison a few if starting afresh. First to go would be Gates to Aesgaard 1 & 2. These are fine mods and fun to play, but fairly short (compared to, say, Lost Spires and VHBloodlines) and somewhat one-dimensional. Worse for me, the bulk of both mods take place in their on worldspace, a practice I'm becoming more and more out of favor with. Add to this that the creator has abandoned Oblivion modding, so that the series will never be complete. So, fine as they are I don't see myself re-playing them.

My next omission is rather surprising: Windfall. Windfall is one of my Top-3 quest mods of all time, the other two being Lost Spires (for its polish amongst other things) and Kragenir's Death Quest. (VHBloodlines is a close fourth.) But, as great a mod as it is, once done it's done. Even should you become count (as my avatar did) that office carries no duties or obligations. In other words, there's no real reason to visit there. I doubt I've set foot in Windfall once this real-life year. So if I start afresh out it goes, though it will break my heart to do so. (Admittedly, if Ed_Conn ever expands the mod to any great extent (and fixes some bugs) I'd re-install it in a heartbeat.)

Most other quests I'd keep. VHBloodlines, Lost Spires, AFK_Weye, Lost Sword of the Ayleid, Kragenir, one of the Kvatch rebuilding mods, Fort Akatosh Redux, etc. All are fun and exist within Tamriel-proper. What I want more of are mods that add recurring never-ending quests, even if somewhat mundane. I get a big kick out of doing wine deliveries for Tamika (Kragenir) and always turn in looted Vampire Dust to the Order of Virtuous Blood (OVBE). Elsweyr-Anequina merchant runs can be fun too. These repeatable tasks seem a neglected area. I'd like to see more of that sort of thing incorporated into the major quest mods, giving them longevity once their major goal is reached.

I'll of course keep existing “cosmetic mods”. I don't use a lot of those due to performance. A couple of UL's (Lost Coast, Imp Isle, and just recently Skingrad Outskirts), AmpolX ATP2, ImpeREAL City – Unique Districts with addons, AWLS, a night-sky darkener, Enem, etc. (My biggest regret is that my system can't seem to handle RAEVWD.) That's pretty much it. I might add more, but doubt I'll go overboard.

New Roads & Bridges, West Roads, DropLit Torches OBSE are musts, as are the standard utilites (FastExit2, Crash Prevention, Oblivion Stutter Remove, nVidia Blackscreen fix, OAF, etc.).

As to particular mods I want to add, I'm not yet sure. I know I'll want Oblivifall Alive (with Inns) one way or the other, and maybe Oblivifall – Losing MY Religion if starting afresh. Also stuff like Let's Talk and Lore Dialogue 300. Maybe a few traveling NPC mods (guards, merchants, entertainers, etc.) but that depends on how well my system handles the added A.I..

For those who are curious, here is my current load-order, with probable keepers highlighted in blue and potential losses in red. Iffy mods remain gray.


There you have it. More thoughts than anything else at this stage. Still, I'd appreciate any input, especially regarding conversion from OMOD to Bain, and how one installed AWLS through BAIN.

Thanks for the ear, and sorry about the rambling.

-Decrepit-

AWLS is BAIN-Ready. There are very straight foward instructions on its Nexus page.

Installing Mods - http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/index.php?page=installing_mods
BAIN Installation - http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/index.php?page=bain_installation
Example BAIN-Friendly Repackages - http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/index.php?page=example_bain_repackages
Complete Guide to Modded Oblivion with BAIN (old site) - http://sites.google.com/site/oblivionpoinfo/walkthroughs/baininstallguide <-- This is slightly outdated. When, and if, you need to install any utilities, please refer to their separate pages on the new site.


Edit: If you have questions or feed back about the site or the installation guide, please post in the relevant thread (see my sig for links.)

Edit: There is no reason to have BOSS running on a separate folder with Wrye Bash. Just make sure Lock Times is on when you run BOSS, and BOSS will not be able to alter your load order. I recommend leaving that lock on as long as you are not intending to modify your load order, anyway.

If you like quest mods you should certainly look at Integration-The Stranded Light. I play slowly but even so, 300 hours into a fresh instal in which my main priority was to do I tegration Quests I'm still not at the end of the mod, or apparently even anywhere near the end. (I have done other stuff as well though). I also enjoyed Windfall and Verona House Bloodlines so I think you would like it.

Repeatable quests- Try The Ayleid Steps.Adds lots of playability.

You can set WryeBash to run games with 2 or more mod lists, I think it's in the settings called 'Profiles' .

You shoiuld try an overhaul. BIG game improvement. I just use OOO.

I'm a bit bemused at the moment about the huge enthusiasm for BAIN installations. I usae Omods for just about everything, and find them easy and convenient to use. Many mods come with scripted installations for Obmm, making installation a breeze, and for those complex mods without an installation script the chances are that TheNiceOne has provided the necessary (Race Balancing Project springs to mind). I understand that BAIN makes texture installation and removal more efficient, but don't understand how. Perhaps I will look at this when and if I ever do a full reinstall.

You rally should use a Bashed Patch if you've gone to the trouble of installing Wryebash.It's actually very easy to do, will probably resolve conflicts you didn't know you had, and will reduce your active load order as well.

Sorry for no links. This computer won't let me link for some reason.

Downloading Mods - http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/index.php?page=downloading_mods <-- All but http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=21989 are linked here. I will add it later.

Preparing for Mods - http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/index.php?page=preparing_for_mods <-- You'll find a little OBMM vs. BAIN blurb here
BAIN vs. OBMM (UESPWiki) - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes4Mod:Wrye_Bash/Bash_vs._OBMM

BAIN offers a lot more when it comes to installation, at least when you use a large number of mods (or a few overlapping mods such as cosmetic mods and texture replacers.)


Edit: FYI: I use to add OMOD scripts to almost every OMOD I had that did not already have them. I have probably made over 700 OMODs, took the time to make sure each one was scripted, and put them into groups (to facilitate good installation order) but that was only a nightmare in comparison to managing them with BAIN. I do not really care about scripted installation. If the packages are sorted logically, then BAIN installation is very simple. Plus, I read ReadMes (and you still have to do that even when you are using OBMM, if you want to really know that a mod has been installed properly.)

Yes, but it's still a good example of a mod that is nice to install via OBMM as you get screenshots showing how the different options will look. I'm using BAIN for almost everything but I installed AWLS and some others via OBMM. My point is that there's no reason to choose either or as you can use both.

I used to add screenshots to my OMODs as well, but that is not important to me. The BAIN Wizard might be able to add that kind of support in the future, I don't know... AWLS is not one I would want to install with OBMM because of conflicts with other mesh replacers and aesthetic mods. I like having everything installed in the right order, ensuring that the right version of data files are installed, and BAIN is perfect for that. QTP3, MMM and Blood&Mud all some files that AWLS replaces. I vouch for using both, but with BAIN as the primary mod installation tool. I think there is good reason for choosing BAIN over OBMM to install mods (whenever possible) but that is a matter of opinion. Prioritized installation and good conflict detection are at the top of the list for me, and that makes BAIN the obvious choice.

Agreed. Personally, I'd say it's simply better, but has a bit of a learning curve to it... depending on your background to some extent, I guess. For me, it took a little while to adjust. And I'm still learning, really! But oh my god, does it make installing, reinstalling, adding, deactivating and so on incredibly less fraught with risk, and less painful. In fact, 100% painless is the default, once you have things set up properly.

Possibly a little frustration up front, but oh so much less forever more.

For a first time installer of AWLS I'm sure the screenshots are quite helpful, even if you don't think it's important. Anyway, I agree with you on the whole, I just find it a bit silly to be either-or, i.e. switching completely from OBMM to BAIN in this case. I choose the tool that is most convenient.

I agree. Doesn't AWLS say it is not for new mod users? (Not that that always helps...) I am just saying it is not important to me. You have certainly been dealing with mods for plenty of time. I do not doubt that that is important for some or even many. AWLS is not the mod that comes to mind when I think of screen shot help, but any body replacer does. (I should've included the v4 picture when I repackaged the v5 beta...but I think permissions stopped me from consider it...??) I switched completely over a period of weeks. Well, I actually have all of the music mods still packed in OMODs. They do not conflict with anything, so I do not care when they are installed. I prefer to have them packed up tightly in OMODs when I am not using them, and there is no need for BAIN to be scan them either. Outside of those, the only other mods I use that are still in OMODs are a couple of shader-editing mods, Detailed Terrain and Qarl's Depth of Field Mod. BAIN certainly is not more convenient in the case of either of those groups... Some music mods replace the original music files, but I have not heard of complicated music pack installation, haha.


Edit: I have not installed AWLS with OBMM. Arkngt, were you referring to installing the meshes or the textures?

-Decrepit-

AWLS is super easy to install with BAIN too and the readme gives pictures so if you have that open while installing the folders it is the same except that if you change your mind it is just a few clicks to put what you want in instead of running the entire install of all components again as you would with OMODs. Having installed this in the past with OMOD and with BAIN I would choose BAIN any day of the week. I don't need an omod script to see the pretty pictures.

A much better example of OMOD being better is mods by TheNiceOne or ABO where the omod script will customize the included ini. OR any mod that requires OBSE plugins like OBGE.

Tomlong gave her site/thread so here is my http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/ and a link to http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/957424-custom-bain-projects/ with more examples.

To grasp what the essence of BAIN is you must grasp the folder structure and install path of oblivion mods. You kinda have to get how manual/by hand installs work then understand that BAIN is simply automating this process. It gives better conflict reports because it encourages people to think about what is installed and where.

This is a different philosophy from OBMM and omods with their black box approach to installing. "Something was installed somewhere according to a script that I assume was correct, but I will leave that to the experts who did the script for me." What BAIN provides is that great middle ground between OMOD (do it for me) and manual install (I do it all), but in order to make that jump you have to educate yourself in what doing it all yourself is like first to get that BAIN is making manual installing a breeze.

The resistance to implementing BAIN continues to be a mystery to me. Embracing BAIN means that users must take responsibility for their installing mods into their own hands and be responsible for their own installs rather than handing them a script to install and then saying that their install is their responsibility. Encouraging the easiest path always is not creating a teachable moment.

Probably the most helpful concept to grasp with BAIN is annealing. This is where you can re-choose what folders and what options you want and BAIN will reshuffle all the files (including the files of other BAIN packages) for you to give you what you want. To think further - this very feature is even part of Fallout Mod Manager

I would assume that it is easy to install with an OMOD. The AWLS and BC teams put a lot of work into there installation docs; however, have you read the BAIN instructions for that mod? They are in the Nexus page description.

Why would you create a separate folder? Part of what the Installers tab allows you to do is see conflicts, and it will let you know whether or not a package is BAIN-Ready. Using its highlighting indicators would be more reliable than trying to sort out everything in a separate, without support directory.

I was just asking Arkngt about the OMOD installation, but you have described it plenty well, thank you.

Well, for creating OMODs I use a special "OMOD Creation Work Folder", with individual mods getting their own sub-folders. This is where I double-check things and do any pruning, adding-to, and combining necessary for my OMODs. Take, for example, Verona House Bloodlines. I've had it installed for months and months, but recently decided to use the mod for my first experiment with PyFFI. So I went to the Work Folder and created a sub-folder called "VHB 1.4 PyFFI". I copied files from my pre-existing VBH 1.4 work folder (beginning with its \data folder) into the new sub-folder. I next checked to insure the mod's readme and other documentation had been removed so as not to get OMOD'd. I then replaced the stock ESP with the one in my Oblivion\data directory, since it had already been cleaned with TES4edit. I then took a break and PyFFI'd all VHBloodines meshes, using the in/out folder right-click-and-run technique specified at your site. Once done I transferred PyFFI'd meshes to my work-folder, letting them overwrite the original files. All that done, I was ready to make my new and hopefully improved VHB OMOD with OBMM. After doing so, I of course deactivated my original VHB OMOD and activated the new one. Adjusted load-order manually with OBMM. (Same position as the old version, of course.) Re-ran TES4LODgen to be on the safe side. VOILA!

Now, I realize I coulda just made an OMOD of PyFFI'd meshes and activated that, letting it overwrite installed VBH meshes. But that seems a bit too confusing and messy for me, what with an extra OMOD and all. Having one OMOD with PyFFI and cleaned ESP is much easier for me to grasp, and in any case I had the original non-PyFFI OMOD should something go wrong. (So far as I can tell, the operation was a complete success.)

If BAIN removes the need for some of this so much the better.

-Decrepit-

Well BAIN can read archives directly - no need for a special format (omods) - the only thing you have to do as the user is make sure that the archive you are adding has the appropriate folder/file path. Probably best to use 7zip though. I cover that in my http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/page__view__findpost__p__15797988 in my thread. Yes I have to have made special folders like you mention for certain mods - and absolutely yes for adding in PyFFI or packaging mods together. Generally the older mods with Morrowind confusing folder structure and standards needs to be repackaged. Like most body mods except EVE. I outlined a method for that in my thread too.

I've moved from OMOD to BAIN twice and with Oblivion did sections at a time (FCOM first, then replacers, then other major mods down to the smaller ones). Testing at each addition. Then reinstalled.

Then with Fallout 3 I spent time BAINing as much as I could and then removed all my fomods and added the BAIN packages all at once.

Basically either way you go will work it is about how much work up front do you want to do.

[edit] just start using BAIN mods, then look at what mods you want to convert and do them slowly - you will get the hang of it in no time.

Psymon also has the second folder for more quickly altering those complex BAIN packages, meh... I found another guy who like to do archive compilations, but is creating them with OMODs... You will probably have another convert pretty soon.

Serves more purposes than that - also provides redundancy as I have the catalog on another drive from the BAIN folder and the game directory.

And again for many mods it will be unavoidable that you have to repackage.

It is just silly in my eyes to have a quest mod that is in one package then the PyFFI'd meshes for the mod in another package or even the cleaned esp in another package ... especially when I have to repackage the mod anyway. I see my style as more economical.

I have this thing about preserving originals, but I suppose I have space to duplicate all of my archives. ^____^ However, I will leave the cleaned plugins in a project. I mess with those too much. I may get around to merging those at some point as well. It certainly is not easy reading through the extra 50 or so "PyFFI-optimized" packages...