Like all things Yokudan, I am constantly baffled by the seeming simplicity of things such as Sword Singing and by extension the whole art of Redguard swordplay. By that I mean the crazy things they can do with swords that aren't considered magic. After rereading Sword Meeting however, I have a new perspective on it all. Consider these lines:






I doubt that MK and the devs who designed the Skyrim Thu'um system collaborated, but the two concepts seem strikingly similar. Given the literal treatment of memories-in-stone, we can assume that the Yokudans literally inscribed knowledge on stones meant to be absorbed rather than read and learned. We see the exact same mechanic work with Dragon walls and knowledge of the Thu'um. The Dovahkiin does not know the Dragon language just like Cyrus does not know Yoku. Miraculously though, once the Dovahkiin absorbs a word, he can speak the language. This is identical to Cyrus not being able to speak Yoku and then absorbing stone-knowledge, learning not only new sword moves but also the language as well as seen here:


Again, I doubt that when Bethesda was developing Skyrim, they based the Thu'um and learning the Dragon language on Sword Meeting, but that doesn't mean the two couldn't still be made to be related within the universe.

In the same fashion it also explains the mechanic behind sword singing. As I've said before in one post, the sword is such a powerful and integral symbol in Redguard culture that things which aren't swords may still be referred to as swords. Therefore if the Redguard have their own kind of Thu'um that allows them to kill people with their minds or voices, as implied by the term "sword singing", they would view that act of violence as a sword action because the word "sword" is synonymous with "fighting" or "violence" or "attack" QED.

In conclusion, the mechanics behind Sword Singing and the more complicated Redguard sword moves, particularly the ones that seem magical can be compared to the mechanics of Thu'um, in that regular sword moves cannot do such things as cause the wielder to become undead, appear in multiple places at once, and split atoms to create nuclear explosions while regular shouting cannot throw people backwards, spit fire and ice, slow time, and deflect arrows. Both forms of fighting could likewise be one in the same, extant on Nirn before magic.

It would make relative sense. Traditional magic is more Mer oriented. Seems practical that the "pure" humans would have strange magics of their own, and that they would be similar.

Most interesting....

If I know my Dawn history, magic in the traditional sense didn't appear until Nirn was in its final birthing stages, and Magnus fled in terror back to Aetherius, creating the sun with his children the Magna Ge (sp?) creating the stars. The Aetheric energy would become magic. Thu'um though is not magic, and it has existed since the Dawn. I would hypothesize that if magic did not exist until the beginning of the Merethic and Nords and Redguard both had access to magic-like arts, the two would be related and work on the same non-magic principles.

Nords have immense focus in their culture on speaking and breathing, so their power is the Voice.
Redguards have focus on weaponry, so their power is the spirit swords.
Wonder what the Nedes would have if we go with this hypothesis.

Also Nords=Dovahkiin, Redguards=Hoon'Ding, Nedes=Shezzarine?

If anything, I'd think a Nord would be more likely to be a Shezzarine than a Nede.

I'd never have thought to compare [the Sword-Meeting with Skyrim's representation of thu'um]. What a great train of thought.

How Shouts and the word walls work in Skyrim is one of my favourite things about the game; I wonder if this similarity (if not connection or even inspiration) is why.

None of it seems enough to best Vehk, though. Somehow I doubt the thu'um would phase him much either.

I'd think the Thu'um would work pretty well against him. Back in the first era, Vehk traveled all over Tamriel and when he went to Hammerfell he learned from the ansu, including most if not all their sword lore, so if anyone tried to fight him with a sword, Vehk'd make him his b!tch, literally...

There's nothing I've heard of in his arsenal that would work against the Thu'um. In one of the Lessons, he talks about making an ebony echo helmet thing that he put over Ysmir's head so that his voice would just bounce around and drive him mad, but there's no technique that I know of to combat the Thu'um except a greater Thu'um.

There is a difference between sword moves and sword singing I would think. I think Vehk does it when he says "Fa Nuit Hen" and cuts appear on Cyrus' body, but he was holding a sword when he said it, so I'm not completely sure.

If anyone knows any good sources besides Sword Meeting on the ansu and sword singing, by all means link it.

The big connection I see is that it's not power from the Aetherius, where must feats of magic and power (save for physical exertion) are performed, but are both power from within.

With the voice, it's mastery of the breath, wind, and voice. A user of Thu'um shouts at the world to bow down, instead of being more...scientific with manipulation (magic). With sword singing, instead of projecting power with one's voice, it's focusing one's power into the symbol of conquest and power, a sword. Further, it's more than just slashing randomly, it's also like a martial art.

I believe it was the Chimer who defeated and humbled the ancient Tongues.

That said I've never heard of Vivec going up against a real Shehai so it's very possible that he doesn't know what one could do. For all his wisdom, there's much he doesn't know.

Edit: It should be mentioned that the powers of the Voice can be repelled with conventional magics.

If you mean stuff like Ward, a lot of it seems game mechanic based. If it doesn't do more than the threshold damage, it does nothing. For the most part, I doubt the game itself can really tell the difference between Thu'um and magic.

I would think that the Thu'um derives its power from Kyne. I don't know if there is a patron deity of sword singing.

Furthermore, there has to be a difference between singing power into tangible form as seen with sword singing and Thu'um and the art of Redguard swordplay which can involve invoking power impossible with a normal blade. Surely this must involve a focusing of power with a physical sword as its apex allowing for powerful effects. Sword singing is the same thing minus the physical sword. In my opinion sword singing is a much easier concept to digest than cutting atoms with a physical blade. There has to be some sort of mental power channeling going on.

Right now I'm gonna be outside swinging my sword around. If Tennessee ceases to exist in the next few minutes, you'll all know why.

Sword Singing comes from either the god of "Get the [censored] out of my way, [censored]!" or one of the other 1000s of Yokudan deities.

I doubt that it was just a game mechanic. Maybe it was, but until we receive lore that says otherwise, I find it more likely that magic can negate the Thu'um. Fire and Frost resistance was similarly effective against the fire and frost breath Thu'um the dragons are so fond of. I think that conventional magic is a lot more versatile in its defensive properties than it's given credit for.

Leki is the goddess of the sword singers.

As strong as the Dovahkiin's Thu'um is, it's not the strongest. I'm sure there's a Thu'um for telling magic to get out of the way, and Shor probably knew it. If anything, I'd think Thu'um taps into the very fabric of creation. It comes from dragons which stem from Akatosh, so there has to be some secrets of the universe in the fine print. The oldest methods of indirectly manipulating reality are in the Thu'um. Theoretically a being with complete understanding of Thu'um could shout "NO!" and the whole of Nirn would cease to be.

That [http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-nine] actually lists some interesting powers of the "demon chieftains of the frigid west," which I'd interpreted, perhaps incorrectly, to be their thu'um. Eg, Hoaga seems to raise the fallen as undead, and Chemua turns "the rain of Veloth into bile."

It's Nerevar who fights Ysmir, unarmed, and grabs his shouts until his "power throat" bleeds, and Vivec who binds the captured shouts into the listening frame. I doubt anything reliable about the nature of thu'um in comparison to sword singing or other powers can be taken away from it, but it's somewhat relevant at least (not to mention awesome).

I had thought that all the Nord chieftains had Thu'um as well, but Vehk seems to make special mention of Ysmir's power as one of voice as if to imply that he was the only one using Thu'um.

I'm clueless concerning how Nerevar took down Ysmir though. You can't just grab shouts and forge them into metal, and even if you could I'd think only the Nords would know how to do it. Maybe the Dwemer too. I'd think it was just poetic license on Vehk's part. Who knows how Nerevar beat him.

Damn, this very thought had occurred to me last week when re-reading the Sword Meeting. I was going to bring it up sometime, but you beat me to it. I blame the holidays.

Anyways, I think the power for a thu'um doesn't come from Kyne or the "fabric of creation" or anything, I see it as a more personal power, coming from one's self. A sort of expression of will. Kyne "giving the gift of the Voice" is just teaching them how to use it, not providing the source of the power.

That last part. It reminds me of something a motivational speaker would say at a corporate retreat or an AA meeting.

"The power doesn't come from anyone. It comes from inside of you!"

haha, oh god, it does. I was trying to avoid that sort of cheesy garbage, but... ah well.

If I was at Bethesda right now, I'd devote my existence to convincing the whole gang to make a Skyrim expansion take place in Hammerfell or Yokuda where the Dovahkiin's knowledge of the Thu'um is bolstered by the Ansu, and you get to learn Sword Singing to manifest the HoonDing and beat the Thalmor out of Hammerfell. It's not just crazy fan fiction. There's that quest in Whiterun that alludes to the current struggle.

is there a god of Talk to Death here, too?

Yes, Coyle said, but Ansu-Gurleht

Of course there is, Cyrus said.

Like I said, Cyrus is the patron saint of confused forum-goers. He's my hero.

He's everyone's hero. Or should be. If not, I'll go all Pankratosword on their ass.

I'd love that. It'd tie in well with all the suggestions that the continuation of Skyrim's plot in DLC will relate to the Thalmor threat. Certainly, they could use some more attention.
Major props.