Tabula Rasa? : V - Skyrim

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:02 pm

I am hoping that in character creation, besides choosing race we also have some skill points to distribute and a starting perk to choose.
That way we could still design fairly unique characters.
I was thinking something along the lines of Fallout: New Vegas, where at the start you can choose 3 skills to get an extra 15 points and a special starter perk, from a list of starter perks that are only selectable during character creation.
I hope its something like that, at least.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:51 pm

I'm guessing they will have a Fallout 3-esque thing in the beginning where you are given x amount of stats to distribute throughout your skills. And you race will obviously give you bonuses. And then there's birthsigns too (not actually annouced yet, I think). And most players will still be focusing on a specific playstyle anyway, so they will build a class in their mind. A lot of people will probably choose 7 or so major skills that they will focus on and will just ignore the rest. The lack of an actual in-game class system isn't going to change anything. It doesn't really matter if the game acknowledges it or not, it will still be there.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:46 am

I'm sure you aren't starting with a complete blank state. Your skills in cooking, weaving, farming and cleaning are there if you want to imagine them.

You DO start with a char that has no adventuring skills to mention though. By that I mean no real fighting experience, no alchemy, no advanced illusion magic knowledge etc...

Basically, you are just a nobody, some average guy from an average town with NO adventuring skills worth mentioning that grows into something huge that will shape the world as you know it by the time you finish the main quest.

But even as an average joe you are going to have some skills. More particularly, you are going to be better at talking and bargaining than you will swinging a sword: again, you are equally as good at talking and bargaining as fighting and casting magic. That's just not realistic in any way you cut it - in fact, with the tabula rasa system that Skyrim seems to be using, you are pretty bad-a. Think about it: you're a twenty year old who is as good at casting fire spells, summoning monsters, swinging swords, and picking locks as.... talking and bargaining. You're a jack of all trades (equally bad = equally good ), and I'm sorry, but that's just stupid.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:25 pm

As some have said, the game ensures that you can't be a jack of all trades, so why is your character after (at least) twenty years of life?

How does the game ensure you cant be a jack of all trades? you definitely can...You can raise all your stats to max, the only limit you have is the number of perks....so if you mingle your perks all throughout different trees you in turn become a jack of all trades(being decent but not exceptionally good at everything)

and where are you getting your info that you start off being good at everything?...you start off bad at everything and start playing thus making the things you use the most better.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:36 pm

... in this way you will become a character based on what you do, not what you choose (like in a class system)...

Todd Howard is trying to teach us the essence of Existentialism.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:47 pm

...and where are you getting your info that you start off being good at everything?...you start off bad at everything and start playing thus making the things you use the most better.

You start off as a jack-of-all-trades because all your skills are equal (as far as we know).

It doesn't matter that some skills aren't super high, the fact that they are all equal makes your character a blank slate.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:36 pm

The player character background is not told in the game. That's something that you have to come up with yourself. What if my character was a simple fisherman before? Why would he have starting experience with blades or magic?

Of course your character is a blank slate. Anything else would be ridiculous.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:04 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, cause I haven't been plugged into the Skyrim development until today.

But it seems as if you don't pick Major/Minor skills. That you start out with all skills equal and increase them through use (with the stones adding increase bonuses for some) - in this way you will become a character based on what you do, not what you choose (like in a class system).

My problem with this is that it gives us characters that are tabula rasas - blank slates. This would be perfectly fine, except that our characters have already lived twenty years. That's twenty years of experiences where they have become proficient at certain skills, no differently than we set out to do in our game. Why is my character being denied those twenty years of experience? More importantly - it is hardly realistic that a man should be equally good (or equally bad) at everything. As some have said, the game ensures that you can't be a jack of all trades, so why is your character after (at least) twenty years of life?

Am I mistaken about the beginning skill system? What is character generation going to be like? Just pick a face and a race and you're done?

Your char is not denied 20 yrs xp, they have been imprisoned so skills have slipped a bit as is the usual case with TES games.

The game does not ensure that you cannot be a jack of all trades, you decide that by your actions or lack thereof just like rl, it never pays to start out a jack of all trades, as it restricts you from specializing in any 1 field, and this is normal to rl also.

Picking a race itself will give you some bonuses, and as of yet, we dont know any more, so why worry till we do ?

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:08 pm

Well, although you are right this is really nit picking, and besides what do you want TES to do about it ? let you play as a baby until you get into jail ? Now that would really break out of TES's usual habits.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:36 am

The player character background is not told in the game. That's something that you have to come up with yourself. What if my character was a simple fisherman before? Why would he have starting experience with blades or magic?

Of course your character is a blank slate. Anything else would be ridiculous.

You're right - he has had a character background, he has been a fisherman (or whatever)! So he should have skill experience that reflects that. He should be better at mercantile or speechcraft or alchemy than destruction and sword wielding. But with the tabula rasa, with your character being a blank slate, his past doesn't matter - he's as good at bargaining as he is at killing people!

Your character should be better at certain things, anything else would be ridiculous.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:14 pm

You're right - he has had a character background, he has been a fisherman (or whatever)! So he should have skill experience that reflects that. He should be better at mercantile or speechcraft or alchemy than destruction and sword wielding. But with the tabula rasa, with your character being a blank slate, his past doesn't matter - he's as good at bargaining as he is at killing people!

Your character should be better at certain things, anything else would be ridiculous.

How would you define that without limiting your character to certain skills? The great thing about this is that you get better at what you do, and every skill has an effect on your overall level. If it was like OB you would be limited to only leveling certain skills to gain experience.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:26 pm

Im sure Races will determine the lvl of your skills at the start

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:00 am

Think about it on a scale gentlemen, with 100 being a master and 0 being a blank slate. None of TES games have started you with 0 in any skill, it was always 5. So what we need to determine is what a skill level of 5 is equal to in real world standards. Mathematically it is 5% of being a master. I have, heard here and there, that it takes 10,000 hours to truly master something. So, mathematically, a skill level of 5 equates to 500 hours of practice.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:00 pm

Im sure Races will determine the lvl of your skills at the start

Maybe. But the point is there's a hell of a lot more to a person than just their race.

Are all people of the same race good at the exact same things?

Race should only be a minor factor in determining what kind of person your character really is.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:15 pm

How would you define that without limiting your character to certain skills? The great thing about this is that you get better at what you do, and every skill has an effect on your overall level. If it was like OB you would be limited to only leveling certain skills to gain experience.

Oblivion was stupid, in Morrowind if you level up a certain number of any of your skills you level up. Major/Minor skills just specified that you were better at some things than another things, and thus you had an affinity for them. Skills were pre-set at higher levels and increased at a great rate - of course this was balanced by the skill increasing slower as it got higher. If I was a soldier before I was put in jail I am going to be better at using my sword than using magic, and so that should be reflected in my chargen. If I was a peasant I should be better at mercantile or speechcraft than destruction. With this, everything is the same. That makes no sense.

In addition, you meet people in the world that are the same age as you - yet they will (probably) have a skill set that isn't the same. They have grown, they have gained experience. Skyrim is assuming you haven't while they have. Skyrim chargen is the opposite of Oblivion leveling!!!

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:10 am

Oblivion was stupid, in Morrowind if you level up a certain number of any of your skills you level up. Major/Minor skills just specified that you were better at some things than another things, and thus you had an affinity for them.

Dude, in Morrowind your major and minor skills were the only skills to count toward a level up.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:11 am

Dude, in Morrowind your major and minor skills were the only skills to count toward a level up.

True that, I thought it was different. UESP and the game manual proved me wrong. That's dumb too - it should include misc. skills. But that's regardless of the fact that making everything the same at chargen is stupid.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:29 pm

Hmmm, so this is my understanding of Skyrim's new "improved" character build system:

You start the game as an advlt . . . with NO inherent strengths and weaknesses whatsoever. So you're learned NOTHING at all in 20 to 30 year (or whatever) that you've live.

But then you somehow manage to avoid being executed . . . and you are released from prison (or escape, or whatever again).

And in less than 1 year, you are suddenly the most skilled mage/warrior/thief in all of Skyrim. [based on 200 hours of gameplay * 30 Timescale = 6000 game hours; 6000 game hours / 24 hours in a day = 250 game days]

Unbelievable.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:06 pm

EDIT: Never mind. It's been so long since I've played vanilla, that I don't even remember how leveling worked :facepalm::P

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:59 pm

I disagree completely. Try putting your skills/attributes to 0 in Morrowind or Oblivion.

You won't be able to move...

50 is the starting point for skills and attributes. Just create a race in the construction set and see what your default levels are.

Start for skills (unmodified by any racial/class bonus) is 5, not 50.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:08 am

Start for skills (unmodified by any racial/class bonus) is 5, not 50.

Wow, sorry I'm getting confused between skills and attributes, and the fact that Skyrim has no attributes.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:32 pm

You guys can go ahead and start a character thats already developed... I play TES in part because I love developing a weak character into a strong one... This satisfaction will be even greater in skyrim, as skills start out much lower, and well prolly only see minor race bonuses.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:38 pm

Wow, sorry I'm getting confused between skills and attributes, and the fact that Skyrim has no attributes.

No problem, you were wrong about http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races as well. They may be "base value" 50, but nobody starts in an unmodded game with all attributes that high.

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:16 pm

You guys can go ahead and start a character thats already developed... I play TES in part because I love developing a weak character into a strong one... This satisfaction will be even greater in skyrim, as skills start out much lower, and well prolly only see minor race bonuses.

The point is that every character is going to be developed in some way - they have lived like twenty years of life, haven't they? Haven't you developed your personality, your skills, your talents in that long? Of course you have. Characters should be weak - but they should have strengths and weaknesses within that weakness. With the current chargen you are equally strong at everything. The satisfaction in an RPG (especially TES) is developing a character with, well, character. Backstory is a huge aspect of role-playing. Having a unique character is a huge aspect of role-playing - you'll develop one as you progress in the game, why has your character not in the twenty years of life prior?

» Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:05 pm

I see a small problem with people having background stories to their characters having issues with this.. But it's like asking for my 70 yrs old character to be able to start the game with one handed skill 100, because ZOMGOSH he has so much past experience. No thanks.