I only have direct experience with Oblivion, as I never played Morrowind(unfortunately), and I can say from my experience that I would prefer the Morrowind system by far. Having killable essential NPCs just makes the challenge of the game that much harder. However, this HAS TO BE ENFORCED BY THEIR BEHAVIOR.

For instance, when saving the guildmaster's son for a fighter's guild quest in OB, I was probably around level 35 or so and my entire crew was wiped out in the first room of the cave, followed by the kid getting knocked out literally 25 times before we got out. This was not only ridiculous because he couldn't compete with the enemies (that only I could handle), even though he was a "trained warrior", as well as the fact that he should have been dead, ending the quest or making me try again with another save. Furthermore, this is a perfect example of stupid AI. The kid would simply go running from room to room in front of me getting owned, and I had no control to either command or save him due to his behavior.

Point being, Skyrim better address the issues with both essential and non-essential NPC behavior, functionality, and PC commands, or I'll just end up lonewolfing through the whole game like OB. And not in the good stealthy way.

I remember the only time this was a problem was when Shum gro-Yarug in Skingrad would randomly die and you couldn't buy the house there. But overall I would like to have killable NPCs, it allows for more roleplay, so that you can do literally anything you want.

Oblivion style because of Possible Bugs in the AI. I mean we wouldn't want Esbern to fall off the top of Throat of the Mountain because his AI told him to go back to his cabin and he took the quickest route, which is down the mountain.

its already been confirmed in that italian magazine that npcs essential to the main quest can't be killed... topic solved?

This isn't about what's already in.
This is about what we think SHOULD be in. What should be changed or not changed!
It's 9 months left and things can change very much in that time.

Yup This whole forum is giving our opinion and thoughts of what it SHOULD be.

Many quest related NPCs in Oblivion were set as essential and I think that should be done away with. If you inadvertently screw up a side-quest or faction quest because you killed someone earlier that svcks but it's your own fault. On that note, I do think these NPCs should be essential when it comes to outside forces, if a guild leader travels between towns and is killed by wandering monsters while you're on the other side of the province it hardly seems fair to punish you - but if you decide to kill said guild leader I think you should have the option.

However for really critical characters I don't have a problem with an Oblivion-style essential system, and here I'd define critical as having less to do with the main quest and more to do with the impace of their death. To use Oblivion as an example, High Chancellor Ocato death would have far-reaching implications and designing and implementing such scenarios for several NPCs would require a lot of resources and I question if it's worthwhile.

To continue using Oblivion as an example, I do think it would have been nice if characters like the Counts hadn't been essential. While a complex scenario following their death would be great I'd be happy with something simple, say if you killed a count/ess the guard would be greatly increased and if you killed both they'd later be replaced by a generated NPC.

Fallout New Vegas only had a single essential character and for the most part it worked well but even though many important NPCs had to be killed as part as opposing faction quest lines I found their deaths often had little impact in the game world and that was disappointing. For someone like a Count this wouldn't bug me, for someone like Ocato this would. In FONV the only NPC death that really bothered me was Mr. House, for someone so critical I would have liked his death to have more impact than removing a handful of robots and having people mention it from time to time.

I think it should be like Morrowind at heart, but have a fail-safe for the lovely NPC's who like to wander and get gobbled up by dragons

I like the added challenge of having to keep them alive on quests and such too, instead of pumping a kill-everybody-in-an-100-foot-radius spell and demolishing everyone in sight, and then waiting for Martin or whoever to get up with only a slight headache (though that does have a certain allure to it).

Saving a lot is good, and I usually do, but there are always times where I get caught up and don't remember to save and I would really be up a creek without a paddle if essentials could die. Maybe have creatures or enemies not be hostile toward essentials except when on a quest? Or like someone else mentioned, when you beat the tar out of an essential, having an option pop up that lets you decide to kill them and break the thread of destiny or some other trash of the like or not.

That opens up potential for some incredibly sweet finishing moves. I like the idea of throwing Chancellor Ocato thirty feet in the air and skewering him on my sword ^_^

Definitely Morrowind style
At least you could kill them, and if you did.. OH well your bad

A. They have stated nothing about the dragons is scripted. Meaning, any number of anyone can die if an attack happens.

B. And that is what everyone wants basically. Seriously essential NPC's should not be able to get killed by random bandits, dragons, or whatever. Only you can bring about their death.

Edit* B2. they could solve this by having "important" NPC's just run into a building as soon as an attack happens.


I agree with everything Ol' Donner just said. :thumbsup:

Exactly... Which is why the script ensures that they don't die outside of your presence... Making them immortal is not the only answer. It's a simple and quick fix that the devs used that I personally think really killed the realism...

Am I the only one who sees the Morrowind style lazy?
"You have made your main quest unwinnable, please reload your game"

I'd rather have the Fallout style. There are essential people but only a few of them and you don't know they're essential.


You call it tension, I call it annoyance.
There's a reason people tend to hate escort missions.

What would be the point of an escort mission if the person you're escorting is invincible??? Couldn't they do better than you can on their own?? With any "escort" type scenario, there should be a point. The "tension" he's talking about would be to keep said NPC alive BECAUSE he/she is essential.

Just saying.....

How about a setting in the menu under the difficulty slider?

Essential NPCs: On/Off

I think that'd work. That way when I'm working through a quest line, I don't have to worry about my guild boss dying (or the man that sells the most expensive house falling off a bridge). And when I'm ready to unleash hell on a town I can just change the setting.

Even though a togglable setting like this would solve this problem... it's not really good to have too many of these togglable gameplay settings. It makes the game feel "cheap" and "shallow", imo... if that makes any sense.

I agree with hlvr. I don't think there should be more than one setting that changes gameplay (from the menu) in an RPG. And that should be the difficulty setting. Anything else just takes away from the "reality" of the world the devs intended to create.

Maybe it could be Oblivion style only when they're your companions, b/c companions don't always know when to hold back, unless maybe the AI is improved enough, but I would only want it as long as they don't get back up right away like in Oblivion. Have them stay down for a few minutes, or maybe until it's safe again (out of battle mode) and you have to activate them (or they just get up on their own after battle is over).

I wouldnt mind a bit of a mix where they can be knocked down and you get a message about it being an important NPC, but while knocked out you can kill them if you wanted to. And once all related quests to them are done theyre unflagged altogether.

Edit: Like previously stated it kinda depends on AI too. In Morrowind theres no NPC wandering or real escorts so usually theres no chance of them being accidently killed, but in Oblivion NPCs moving around in the world coupled with [censored] AI can cause some huge problems.

Nope, sorry.

I think having killable NPC's adds to the game.
In Oblivion you knew wich NPC's were quest related or important, because they had a special symbol.
This made the world feel less real and more gamey to me.

On the other hand, there were a number of not essential travelling NPC's that were very hard to keep alive.
And the master trainers out in the wild, ouch.

I think a good solution would be to have NPC's (meaning citizens or non-hostile talking creatures
like, lets say, a Staada or Creeper) unkillable by each other, only by the player. Unless scripted through quests.
But this may mean it will also feel artificial, if a traveller keeps getting knocked out and never dying.

Still better than random NPC death through falling off a bridge though.

All in all, I think that if its my choice to want to kill Ocato, I should be able to.
And I dont really want to know beforehand that he is important, because of a crown icon.
A message afterwards is fine. I think not knowing who is important and being able to kill anyone adds to the quality, the freedom of the game.

A Dunmer in Balmora once told me to never take a life carelessly, as it cheapens me.
It was good advice, I never killed anyone in Morrowind without saving first.

I'd like this to be an option in the options menu. Its good practice to make it so that the quest line cannot be broken, but fightin essential NPC's is just terrible.

Maybe they could be essential, unless the killing blow is from the character? So other NPC's can't kill them, but you can.

Gothic style. Health reaches 0? They're knocked unconscious/down. Only then it's possible for the player to finish the NPC off if he chooses to. Or he can just steal the guy's stuff, whatever.

Or in the case that an essential NPC is attacked by monsters, then monsters will only be able to knock him down temporarily, they won't be able to finish him off. Only the player should be able to do that.

This way you don't restrict the player in killing who he wants to kill, but at the same time it prevents the game from breaking accidentally. This was less of a problem in Morrowind because NPCs did not travel.

What if maybe they respawn or something?

Well if they're important enough that their death would sever the thread of prophecy they should be bad asses when it comes to their personal stats/skills.

I remember one horrible experience I had with an essential npc. There was a mage guild mission in Oblivion where I had to trek through some ruins to get to a turncoat mage. When I saw him at a distance, I started firing arrows at him, resulting in some ranged combat. In a little bit, I had killed him... or so I thought. I left the dungeon and went to the mage guild, expecting the recommendation, but lo and behold, I couldn't get it because I hadn't finished my mission. Turns out that I had to TALK to him first before I could kill him. So, to make things ridiculously easy, I brought down his health to the "unconscious" state before talking to him, healed up, had the mandatory conversation, and killed him in one slash.

To me, that was just ridiculous. Of course, it would have svcked even more if I failed the quest because I didn't have the conversation, but still, I feel as though this needs to be rectified.