If you don't want to read all this just skip to the end of this post. I warn you though, you will miss quite a bit of meaty info and suggestions if you do. Also, as much as I think vampires and werecreatures should return and would DEFINITELY like to see quests and factions related to them, I am basing this off of Oblivion and Morrowind without expansions or DLC.

Ok, I know there have been many threads on this but I specifically waited until there hadn't been one for a while (I looked like 3 pages back, but if there was one and I missed it, I apologize) This is my take on the guild system, how it worked in previous games, and how I personally think it should work this time around. I know they are already probably done with this part of the game but it never hurts to dream.

The Guild System - Or Simply, Factions

Factions have been around since the dawn of civilization. What it basically is is a group of people dedicated to the same goal. So that means everything from the Axis of Evil to the NBA (The REAL Axis of Evil, amirite? lol jk). Heck even your school or place of work is a faction, with dozens, maybe hundreds of mini subfactions. But, as that is kind of irrelevant to my future points, we will leave this part of the discussion.

Older TES Factions

I'm not going to go in depth on this part, just a link to where you can see all the factions in the game, and a description of it's role on the game. I won't be iterating on DLC or expansion guilds, as they are irrelevant to my point.

Morrowind

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Factions

In Morrowind you can join only one Great House (Unless you use a glitch). In addition to that, you automatically join the Blades through the Main Quest, and then can join several guilds, including the predecessors of Oblivion Guilds.

Oblivion

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Factions

The guild system was cut back a lot in the transition from Morrowind to Oblivion. You still become a Blade through the main quest, but you have a lot less options for minor guilds this time around. You have the Fighters Guild, the Mages Guild, the Thieves Guild, the Dark Brotherhood, and the Arena.

The main thing about Oblivion is there are only certain guilds to join, but there are a LOT of factions that you can see members of, but can't join.

Opposing Factions - Who Hates Who?

Each Faction in Oblivion (and I think Morrowind, not enough time spent playing that game), had a polar opposite. They were enemies, or sometimes just rivals. Here is the list as I took it:



The main thing to note on this is each of the joinable factions were either "good" or "bad" and the opposing faction was of the opposing legality. Blackwood Company would take any contract and was dishonest, Necromancers were evil (although that was mainly MG persecution), and the Yellow team was somewhat shady.

My Thesis - What I Would Like to See

In Skyrim, I would like to see the number of factions you can enter essentially double from Oblivion, but at the same time impose limits on how many you can join. Basically I want all the guilds from Oblivion (We know the Mages Guild and the Blades are gone, as are Mythic Dawn), as well as their opposition to be playable. This would be my ideal list:

• Main Quest Good Guys (Formerly Blades)
  
• Main Quest Bad Guys (Formerly Mythic Dawn)
  
• Fighter's Guild
  
• Blackwood Company (Or new equivelant)
  
• Synod (New Mages Guild)
  
• College of Whispers (Other New Mages Guild, from the name it sounds like it is a bit more outside the law than Synod)
  
• Thieves Guild
  
• Dark Brotherhood
  
• Guards (Going after the DB or TG, or maybe even both)
  
• Arena (Blue Team)
  
• Arena (Yellow Team)

Basically that. Not sure on who are the good and bad guys yet. They could either be the two sides of the civil war or the Dragonborn (and his followers) and Alduin (and his followers). But how do we choose the limitations on who you can join? Simple. You have your MQ faction where you have to choose one or the other. You can then join 1 public guild (Synod, CoW, FG, or BC) and 1 private guild (Guards, DB, TG). Finally, you can be on either side of the arena. So a maximum of 4 guilds (5 actually, if you opt for DB and TG instead of being a guard) per playthrough.

This makes sense to me because you can either be the hero of the story or the anti-hero. That hasn't been done really in TES games and I think it is about time. So one of the MQ factions. If you join one of the public guilds their rival won't want you (So a member of Synod won't be in the CoW), and if you are a Mage are you really going to become a member of the Fighters Guild? 1 faction out of 4 seems like it would work.

As for the private factions, the TG or DB wouldn't allow you to join if they knew you were a guard. And if you were a member of one of them and tried to be a guard they would probably kill you. However, I would think that the TG and DB wouldn't have too much of a problem with each other, as they both operate outside the law. They may not like each other but they wouldn't bar you from joining both.

Finally, you can be on either side of the Arena. No one from any faction would care what side you chose.

Making it Play out in Skyrim

How do you do the quests for these in Skyrim? I think they should make it one main quest line for each faction like in Oblivion, but you can play it from either side. Instead of killing some Necromancers on the way to making you mage staff, you are one of the Necromancers who have taken over that spot. Instead of killing a retired guard for the DB, you defend his life. That kind of thing. Each one would have it's own quests when it isn't clashing with it's opposing faction but they always come back to meet.

Also, I have seen that many people just HATED that they always became the leader of the guild. I would like to see some guilds where you can't be the leader in the end, or you can choose not to be. For example, you would never be the "Leader" of the guards, but you could be the leader of the Thieves Guild. But if you don't want to be, you don't have to.

Another thing mentioned is how the rewards for doing all the guild quests were trivial and stupid. We need better rewards for having to do all the legwork. We also should be able to get quests through Radiant Story that keep us busy doing guild work.

Summary - a tl;dr section if there ever was one

I would like the guilds to be more varied, more opposed to each other, and especially more interesting. If you took my advice at the beginning of this post and just skipped down to here you won't get much more detail than that out of a tl;dr section.

Thanks for listening, CHIIILDRENN!

Damn it Three Dog I hate you so much.

Edit: A suggestion from resurgem (as well as Hellmouth): Guild Rank should be dependent on the actual skill levels associated with that guild. For example the Mage Guild won't give a damn about your Sneak skill, but will promote you if you have high enough magic skills. Either that or have some kind of a test (akin to Daggerfall) where you have to do something that would require a certain skill level to do.

It appears that Sphagne has a thread on basically this suggestion, so here is a link to that. http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1168935-guild-ranks/page__gopid__17268766#entry17268766

I think it's confirmed that you'll get random quests as a guild leader in Skyrim, read it somewhere in GI.

As for your idea, I agree with you because I like to make many diff characters experience different things an having to join only a few guilds would strengthen that kind of playing style. But the people that like to experience EVERYTHING on 1 character will probably not like this idea.

I generaly agree , you should be able to choose betwen good or bad and your decision must have some repercusions on the caracters social impact. I also belive its very important to complete difficult quests in order to join one faction not a simple choose-one tipe of decision

The New Vegas faction stuff was really badly made by Obsidian, you basically ended up doing the same quests for all of them anyways. The possibility to double the factions in Skyrim is tempting, giving every faction a counter faction. However, the quests shouldn't be just the same for both faction sides. As as example, the Arena. If you side with the yellow team, you fight different opponents than if you'd side with the blue team, not the same enemy with different colored armor.

Well , i picture and hope for another tipe of factions , like 2-4 main politicaly factions betwen you could choose and join(like in Gothic 1,2) with the posibility of joining just one . Some other small factions could be relaited with the main guilds

Bethesda employees, if you read this I hope you note what the OP says. This is what I missed in OB and I'm sure many others did too.
Anyway, I agree that they should not look to New Vegas for inspiration. I can't really explain it, but I found the whole factionsystem in that game to be rather annoying and the fact that I have too deal with it through the entire game made sure I only played through it once.
I hope that they look more to MW for this. I liked how you would antagonize one faction during your quests for another, and not just a "you-are-a-member-of-that-guild-so-we-hate-you" thing, that would be boring. I would also like the option to chose how certain guilds interacted. I could for example make the Fighters Guild(-ish) work with the Legion(-ish) or have them opposing each other.
I also thing that the OP is right about not being able to be the leader of all guilds, either by choice or that it would not fit for some reason.

Well, most of your points are good. I do disagree though on the notion that guilds need counter-guilds. For instance, the Dark Brotherhood doesn't really have an opposing force that they target directly, rather other groups like the guards would just find issue and attempt to get in their way. But their goal is simply chaos, which makes their only true nemesis Order itself. The Great Houses in Morrowind all hated the other houses, which makes it more like a hatred triangle than anything else. It'd be good to have a few guilds following your recommendations, but I'd also like to see a few guilds that handle one-sided issues. If this were Morrowind, I'd say a guild that frees slaves. Or join the guards and stop general criminals. It's important to consider the other fact that factions don't usually exist to counteract other factions. Rather, they have a primary goal, and it may or may not be coincidence if there is a different group working opposite them. The Thieve's Guild is just doing what they do, stealing things. The guards do what they do naturally, prevent crime. But the guards also stop murder, an act that the thieves disapprove of but the Dark Brotherhood handles well. The Fighter's Guild are mercenaries for hire, and the Blackwater are also mercenaries. One just happens to be morally good, the other morally corrupt.

Going to the new mage groups, my assumption is not about good or evil, lawful or illegal, but one appears to be secular while the other is religious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod is a religious thing. The College of Whispers, we don't know much about, but what we do know is that they operate in the public. If they're not unlawful yet they are at odds with a religious organization, that leads me to assume that they are blasphemers and atheists, which is where they disagree. Makes sense if you consider that magic is a source of power from the gods as well as a tool to be used for science and learning. The only problem is that no one actually disputes the validity of divine beings, and proof of their existence is fairly obvious and undeniable...

Well yeah that is what I meant lol. Not all of the quests would be the same, you would just play a particular side of the quest. Like in the Infiltration quest in Oblivion, you infiltrate the Blackwood Company. If you could play as a member of the Blackwood Company, perhaps you get tipped off that there is a spy and your job is to root him out. There would be other quests that have nothing to do with the Fighter's Guild, but any clash between the rival factions you would take some part in, depending on what side you joined.

I also agree that the DB and to a lesser extent the TG didn't have opposing factions, and that makes sense as they are more secretive. But if you were to join the guards, you would only deal with those factions on specific points (like protecting the retired guard captain from the DB, or maybe attempting to chase down the Elder Scroll stolen during the Ultimate Heist. Things like that). The rest of the time you would be doing your own storyline like raiding Skooma dens, investigating murders, helping defend a royal caravan, that kind of stuff.

:rolleyes: Your lack of imagination is boring and uninspiried. Let me show you how Morrowind handled factions you can join, the real way. NOTE: Neglecting the ones you cannot climb or join, like Ashlanders and Camonna Tong for example, and House Dagoth is removed, as pretty much everyone has a -3 standing with them.


As you can see, all the factions were not 1v1, but "we like them, hate them, and those guys are meh." In fact, a lot of quests dealt with the interaction of factions, whether you are tasked with clearing out a necromancer den with a member of the Tribunal Temple, to steal a cookbook from House Redoran, or to completely wipe out the leadership of House Telvanni. This is what made me love the guilds and factions much much more than OB's way. Not to mention there was hardly any good guild vs. evil guild stuff going on. At best, that'd be the uncorrupt Fighters Guild fighting the corrupt Fighters Guild.

Guilds should not be 1v1, but a "we like them, hate them, and these guys are meh," with "good" and "evil" not even in the vocabulary. None of the factions in Morrowind were good or evil (well, I'd say the uncorrupt Fighters Guild were the only good guys, but enough of that). Thieves Guild was having gang warfare with the Cammonna Tong and hid from the Fighters Guild, in order to take over the illegal operations of Vvardenfell. They were not really that good, nor did they give to the poor (I'm not counting Gentleman Jim's side quests) but they were less brutal than the Cammonna Tong. The Mages Guild had an extremely inept headmaster (more capable than Traven, imo), and could often be seen more interested in protecting its monopoly on magic and the collection of dues than the teachings of and practice of magic. The list goes on and on, but hopefully you all get the picture.

I believe that the Morag Tong and the Dark Brotherhood are enemy factions.

The Morag Tong sees killing as a normal part of the world. It has honor and legal process to go through (writs of execution).

The Dark Brotherhood are murderers who offer blood to Sithis, a dark god.

There is a huge moral difference between the two factions, and if I recall correctly, there was a quest in morrowind that had you fighting the Dark Brotherhood as a member of the Morag Tong

Edit: The wiki also states that the Morag Tong's sworn enemies are the Dark Brotherhood

I know all of that, I was merely talking about limiting the ones you can join based on who would like or dislike you for joining one guild or another. I can go into the CS and pull the exact numbers for the disposition modifiers at any time, I have looked through it before. Of course the Fighters Guild may like the Mages Guild or dislike them or whatever. But I am talking about how each guild had a primary adversary, in addition to the little likes and dislikes factions have amongst each other. For most of the guilds or factions you could join there was always a primary adversary. Even in Morrowind, where you would have to do the menial tasks like finding flowers, making your mage staff, and borrowing a book from the Vivec guild hall, you would find yourself facing Necromancers several times. They may not have been the only people you dealt with, but they were the ones you faced more than any other particular faction.

If they were to add a quest where you are in the Mage Guild and you are working together with the Fighters Guild to prevent a book from being stolen by the Thieves guild then that is even better. I'm all for more faction interaction. I can't think of it all by myself, which is kind of why I posted it here.

Edit: I just used the good/evil thing as an example, None of them were truly one way or the other, except the Fighter's Guild like you said.

my only comment is the dark bortherhoods enemies are the morag tong .. who are a more legal assassins guild

although they onyl operate in certain parts of tamriel

All in all, I like your suggestions. It shows a great sign for replayability, and causes you to create a new character for the apposing side. In Oblivion, I was able to do all the guilds on one character. If I was a normal person, [and not a TES really devoted fan. AND PROUD.] I would've never played it again. But, I did...
Still, there was some sort of opposition to vampires in Oblivion. Do not forget the random quest you get in the temple district. Vampire hunters, which you join, actually. But, no other quest, apart from giving the guy ashes. But, either way, I agree with being able to join the former AND the latter.
Of course there would have to be no chance of joining the other once you joined one.

Yeah I mentioned that I wasn't commenting on Vampires and/or werewolves really, but if they return they should have factions and quests like this too.

To those of you who think the Morag Tong are good and honorable, here's why you are wrong.


And Badprenup, sorry, I sorta skimmed through. However, I still somewhat disagree. I would like to join two opposing guilds! Sure, I had to play my cards right if I wanted to be in the Fighters Guild and Thieves Guild, and especially Mages Guild and Telvanni! But I see your point. Thing is, I feel that Morrowind did it much much better than everyone else, with Daggerfall being a close next. It was more than just 1v1, it was like in RL, some groups like another, indifferent to others, and hate some others. And if you ask me, the only faction that one should make you become banned from joining is the 2 main factions. And even then, that's only towards late game, as I could end up betraying the faction I was working with to the other one and completely mess them up.

Ah, I must have skimmed over it. Maybe even a trifecta effect on that one? Maybe Hunters, rivaled of both, and the werecreatures and a vampire faction. Eventually ending with a team-up, then a deception? Add that up there. :]

Edit: Able to join all three of course. If you pick a werecreatures you team up with the vampires and become a hybrid? And vice-versa. And, hunters, with either or. [I always wanted to be a hybrid... :/]

NO to "You cannot join X because you are in Y" pseudo-depth.
YES to opposing factions using your standing with the enemy as a means to remove them as a threat.
NO to "We must kill them because they are different" mentalities.
YES to collaborations between opposing factions if both stand to gain from a short term alliance.

Just say NO to the one dimensional factions of Morrowind and Oblivion.

As a die-hard Argonian, I'd like to be able to finally join the Twin Lamps! :thumbsup:

I agreed completely, but there must be some aspect of ignorance. It isn't all wonderful. But, the general faction structure should definitely have depth.

Also, no slavery. It'd be more interesting if it was serfdom, thus eliminating the poor slaves and evil puppy kicking slave owner. Requires more thinking when someone willingly gives him/herself up to farm the fields for protection and rule.

Yeah, I figured since the DB and TG were more like secret societies without a known member list you would be able to join both of them in addition to the Fighters Guild or the Mages Guild. Because you can be a magical thief or assassin, or a weapon using thief or assassin. However I don't know if you would see too many mages joining the Fighters Guild or vice versa lol.

Well, I do completely agree there should be skills guilds look for in order to advance the ranks, just like in DF and MW. I'm very sure many battlemages of the Mages Guild joined the Fighters Guild in order to make some extra cash, and hone in on their combat prowess instead of just magical.

I suppose. I never really played a spellsword or battlemage as I prefer 'pure' characters. I would at the very least like to see some collaboration between some guilds, whether it be intentional or purely coincidental.

I prefer intentional. Heck, the Mages Guild requires the aid of the Dark Brotherhood in 2 separate quests in DF, often to deal with a mage who got REALLY high and started blasting fireballs, or to hunt down renegade members.

Interesting. I should download those and give them a shot. I tried before but configuring DosBox was beyond me at the time lol. Now that I'm familiar with classic emulation (thanks to MAME) I think I could do it. Thank the Nine that BGS made the 1st 2 games free downloads.