Taking the easy way out : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:35 am

'Best' is a strong word... but I know that my opinion is better than a lot of peoples, the same way that I know I have superior taste in music to people who listen to Nickelback. It's just something you 'know' once you reach a certain level of understanding about something.

I think what your describing here in narcissism. Your opinion is no better than anyone else's on this board. While I don't agree with you point of view on the argument, at least I have the decency to recognize that your opinion is just as valid as mine. I think that Bethesda is moving their games in the right direction, they're making Skyrim more accessible so that it can be enjoyed by not only long time fans of the series but also new comers to this genre of gaming. The series dosnt belong to to you and while you may not agree with the direction Beth is taking Skyrim, many more people are going to love this game.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:15 am

You American by chance?

Lol...ZING!

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:29 am

Everyone who doesn't like Beth's decisions is American (Yay freedom!). Everyone who does is Chinese (All power to the developers!). World War III shall be waged here.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:38 am

Lol...ZING!

Yep, that was a real zinger. Ouch. I love freedom in real life and in my video games. I am so ashamed.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:45 am

The attribute system has been replaced with a perk tree system. So rather than building your character with a combination of 1 to 100 skill scales, you build him with perks that package those abilities into neat little ability boxes.

Because thinking up, designing, implementing, testing, refining 280+ perks was the lazy way instead of slapping on the old 1-100 and calling it done.

There is no longer any spell making. Instead, Bethesda is giving us pre packaged spells that are sealed off - uneditable.

Because revamping the way spells work, adding in different ways to cast like projectile, streaming, creating runes, etc was the lazy way to do it.

There are fewer skills and spells. Many of the ones that were removed were axed because they allowed the player to do things that are inconvenient for a developer. e.g. mark and recall, acrobatics, etc.

Because redesigning, implementing, testing, and coming up with all new skills/spells and effects was the lazy way to do it.

Two of the armor slots have been welded togeter, and one of the big motivations for the change was that players might combine two pieces of armor that would either look funny, or clip together awfully.

Because making better looking armor and more armor varieties was the lazy way to do it.

Yeah I totally see your point..... :rolleyes:

epic i completely agree

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:57 pm

think that Bethesda is moving their games in the right direction, they're making Skyrim more accessible so that it can be enjoyed by not only long time fans of the series but also new comers to this genre of gaming. The series dosnt belong to to you and while you may not agree with the direction Beth is taking Skyrim, many more people are going to love this game.

I feel as though i'm constantly repeating myself by saying this, but TES is an RPG series. It should be made with that in mind and targetted towards the RPG audience. New fans who have the capacity to enjoy RPGs will always come along without the series needing to be made even more accessibile than it already is (lets be honest here, as far as RPGs go, Oblivion was incredibly accessible).

The quickest way for the TES series to go downhill is if Bethesda try and appeal to a much broader audience outside of the open-world RPG genre. You try and please everyone who owns a games console or a PC, and you not only end up with an inferior RPG but an inferior game in general.

The same rule applies to music, film, and other types of media. Try and please too many people and you end up with [censored].

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:11 am

epic i completely agree

Why? It's based on an incorrect premise. The choice is not between implementing a new magic system and doing nothing. If it were, then I would be wrong, they would not have taken the easy way out. Once they'd already implemented the magic system, the choice was between cutting spell-making and making a new (admittedly more complex) system. They chose the easy way. Take from that what you will.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:03 pm

I have noticed a rather disturbing trend in the details we have heard so far about Skyrim.

The attribute system has been replaced with a perk tree system. So rather than building your character with a combination of 1 to 100 skill scales, you build him with perks that package those abilities into neat little ability boxes.
There is no longer any spell making. Instead, Bethesda is giving us pre packaged spells that are sealed off - uneditable.
There are fewer skills and spells. Many of the ones that were removed were axed because they allowed the player to do things that are inconvenient for a developer. e.g. mark and recall, acrobatics, etc.
Two of the armor slots have been welded togeter, and one of the big motivations for the change was that players might combine two pieces of armor that would either look funny, or clip together awfully.

The attribute system was for the most part clutter. To increase X you have to increase Y knowing that it increases X.. wouldnt it make more sense that to increase X you increase X? Endurance was one of those annoying "MAX ME FIRST OR LOSE OUT LATER" stats. Then there was the terrible way that stats actually increased. The game punished you if you used more than 3 skills inbetween each level up, how is that a good system? If a game has statistics AND derived statistics I just have to ask.. why?

Spell making allowed for the creation of ridiculous spells and let the player easily exploit game mechanics like spell stacking. With the new spell system revamp there is no indication that spell making would synergize well with it. It didnt even synergize well with Oblivions spell system.

Acrobatics and Athletics simply didnt work as skills. They could have been put somewhere else sure but Bethesda chose to remove them. Im not glad they are gone but im glad they are not skills anymore as they simply didnt work well with the way skills increase in TES. Its not good that eventually no matter what character you are playing they will be able to jump 15 foot in the air and run at ridiculous speeds. As for spells like Mark and Recall its not that they are inconvenient for the developer, they are inconvenient for the cell based world the game uses. If this was a PC only title im sure spells like these would be viable. If the spell was in im sure you would complain that every time you entered a new cell you got a message saying your last Mark spell has been erased.

The loss of an armor slot is probably the only thing I dislike but even then its not really a huge deal for me and wont make me enjoy the game any less.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:16 am

The attribute system has been replaced with a perk tree system. So rather than building your character with a combination of 1 to 100 skill scales, you build him with perks that package those abilities into neat little ability boxes.

Because thinking up, designing, implementing, testing, refining 280+ perks was the lazy way instead of slapping on the old 1-100 and calling it done.

There is no longer any spell making. Instead, Bethesda is giving us pre packaged spells that are sealed off - uneditable.

Because revamping the way spells work, adding in different ways to cast like projectile, streaming, creating runes, etc was the lazy way to do it.

There are fewer skills and spells. Many of the ones that were removed were axed because they allowed the player to do things that are inconvenient for a developer. e.g. mark and recall, acrobatics, etc.

Because redesigning, implementing, testing, and coming up with all new skills/spells and effects was the lazy way to do it.

Two of the armor slots have been welded togeter, and one of the big motivations for the change was that players might combine two pieces of armor that would either look funny, or clip together awfully.

Because making better looking armor and more armor varieties was the lazy way to do it.

Yeah I totally see your point..... :rolleyes:

/thread

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:38 am

Why? It's based on an incorrect premise. The choice is not between implementing a new magic system and doing nothing. If it were, then I would be wrong, they would not have taken the easy way out. Once they'd already implemented the magic system, the choice was between cutting spell-making and making a new (admittedly more complex) system. They chose the easy way. Take from that what you will.

I actually think spellmaking wasn't cut, they scrapped the whole former system, build the new one, and when it then came to implement spellmaking (again), it turned out to be non-adjustable to the new system. Who knows, down the line they might find a way to do it, post release or pre release, but I don't think they intended for no spellmaking, it just became a problem, and since they are on a schedule with fixed priorities, they can't stop the bus now to adjust something.

It's basically the same answer they gave with spears, they would love for it to be there, but it's not a top priority, so it's not getting any attention this close to release, and probably wont be in the final release.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:55 pm

The attribute system was for the most part clutter. To increase X you have to increase Y knowing that it increases X.. wouldnt it make more sense that to increase X you increase X? Endurance was one of those annoying "MAX ME FIRST OR LOSE OUT LATER" stats. Then there was the terrible way that stats actually increased. The game punished you if you used more than 3 skills inbetween each level up, how is that a good system? If a game has statistics AND derived statistics I just have to ask.. why?

Spell making allowed for the creation of ridiculous spells and let the player easily exploit game mechanics like spell stacking. With the new spell system revamp there is no indication that spell making would synergize well with it. It didnt even synergize well with Oblivions spell system.

Acrobatics and Athletics simply didnt work as skills. They could have been put somewhere else sure but Bethesda chose to remove them. Im not glad they are gone but im glad they are not skills anymore as they simply didnt work well with the way skills increase in TES. Its not good that eventually no matter what character you are playing they will be able to jump 15 foot in the air and run at ridiculous speeds. As for spells like Mark and Recall its not that they are inconvenient for the developer, they are inconvenient for the cell based world the game uses. If this was a PC only title im sure spells like these would be viable. If the spell was in im sure you would complain that every time you entered a new cell you got a message saying your last Mark spell has been erased.

The loss of an armor slot is probably the only thing I dislike but even then its not really a huge deal for me and wont make me enjoy the game any less.

The spell making system worked fine. Actually, the whole point of the system was to allow more freedom to a mage - to make his spellbook his own. And one of the perks was that you could make very powerful spells. Oh and by the way, spell stacking is not an exploit, that's how the system was designed. The whole point of my post is that yes, it might be inconvenient to make a spell making system that would work with the new spells, but they chose the easy way and simply cut the system. I mean it's not impossible to design a new way to make spells. Heck, it's wouldn't even be that tough.

And I don't see your point with the mark/recall thing. You don't have to erase your last mark point when moving from cell to cell. That's just silly. Any position in the world can be reduced to two sets of coordinates, an ordered pair for the cell coordinates, and an ordered triple for the world coordinates relative to the cell's origin. So you don't need to erase anything. I don't think they mind using a whole 20 bytes of memory to store something like that.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:51 am

I'm quite liking a lot of the changes. They're getting rid of a lot of the meta-gaming, and magic looks to be much more interesting. I remember in Oblivion I'd go to farms, get all the veggies and make loads of fatigue potions. Not because I wanted the potions, but to level up alchemy and get that all-important +5 intelligence at level up. I'd hop from city to city for acrobatics - +5 at level up! I'd farm the bandit dungeon north of the IC for their armour so I could repair it and get armourer up - so I could repair magic items and get +5 endurance at level up. When I got rich I'd go to trainers and level skills I never used - again for +5s.

The new system looks to be getting rid of all that, and that's fine with me. It's making the game more immersive, not less. I don't particularly care that spell-making is gone - Oblivion magic was dull. Acrobatics was only ever good for speed +5s. I agree with the armour though - if only for the loss of an enchant slot.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:05 pm

Okay, let's go by steps.

Attributes:
And you forget the main thing that always been there and doing the same things as the attributes and they're mostly unchanged in this regard: Skills.
How is this less variation? Statistically, it is, yes, but statistics never tells you the full picture, they're just plain numbers without any meaning behind them. If you wanted to be strong you raised your strength AND the weapon skill you wanted to use, now you raise your weapon skill and choose the perk with that skill. If you wanted to be good at magic, you raised intelligence and/or willpower and raised some of the magic skills, now you raise the magic skills, get their perks and raise your magicka at level up. What's missing again?

Spellmaking:
For this, I cannot argue, there are less choices here.
But these choices by themselves are more than what we had before. With spellmaking there were innumerable choices, but nearly all of them felt, used and functioned exactly the same way. Now spells work in a unique way. We already saw a chargeable fireball, a flamethrower, an ice trap and a lightning bolt that works and looks like real lightning, a bigger lightning ball, a protective circle around the player, a fireburst coming out of the player... this is already more varied than spellmaking's touch/self/target spells...
Yes, it would be nice if they would've added more forms like these, but they definietly would've been limited in a big deal. Not to mention the spell combinations...
Overall it's just different, but I wouldn't say that this was the "easier way out" either...

Fewer skill and spells:
On skill, it doesn't matter... at all. Mysticism is out.. so? Spells are still in, the number of choices are unchanged. Athletics/Acrobatics. There still easily can be perks/dragonshouts/spells that change this. If not, stamina.
On spells, the only really lost spells are the teleportation ones and levitation, because of design decisions. These happened so we can have the Arean, the Bloated Float, the paradise...
And these spells are just too powerful without nerfing them out of their usefulness, the game would just become cheap otherwise...

Armor:
One less slot, but more armor overall. Yes, statistically the other would still might be more, but not by much.

Overall, if there is less choice, they are more detailed, important choices. Quality over quantity.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:37 pm

But these choices by themselves are more than what we had before. With spellmaking there were innumerable choices, but nearly all of them felt, used and functioned exactly the same way. Now spells work in a unique way. We already saw a chargeable fireball, a flamethrower, an ice trap and a lightning bolt that works and looks like real lightning, a bigger lightning ball, a protective circle around the player, a fireburst coming out of the player... this is already more varied than spellmaking's touch/self/target spells...

I'll take interesting and diverse spell casting over 100 ways to make the same fireball over and over again any day of the week, and twice on weekends.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:26 am

Who said that spells were 'uneditable'? I fully expect to see the Skyrim equivalent of Midas Magic, Supreme Magicka and Less Annoying Magic Experience from the modding community.

» Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:24 pm

I'm not sure when the last time was that I saw so many straw men all together at one time.

It's like a Wizard of Oz cosplay convention in here......

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:22 pm

I'll take interesting and diverse spell casting over 100 ways to make the same fireball over and over again any day of the week, and twice on weekends.

If that was the limit of your spellmaking skills I can see how it was not useful to you. The new spells add a couple of effects that you could not duplicate in oblivion(traps and point blank AoEs) but you could simulate some of them to a degree with spellmaking. And nothing in the current system seems to be a reason to get rid of spellmaking, in fact it would have just made it richer.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:10 am

I'm not sure when the last time was that I saw so many straw men all together at one time.

It's like a Wizard of Oz cosplay convention in here......

Dude, come on you're better than this.

You're just calling names, chill the [censored] down.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:25 pm

And yet characters will end up being far more unique because of the perk system. And magic looks more fun than it ever has in any elder scrolls game. Regardless of spell count. At the bottom level this is their game that they want to make. Whether or not you buy or play is up to you. Watch any interview with Todd Howard; he can be heard saying "We always create the games WE would want to play." And since they are making the game, they can do whatever they damn well please. So stop complaining about what features are or are not in the game. Let them do what they want, if you don't approve, then move on. They do not owe you anything.

This times 1,000

I hate seeing people bash a game and/or their developers, because no ones asking you to play the game.

You don't like what they're doing to TES, don't buy it!

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:49 pm

I'll take interesting and diverse spell casting over 100 ways to make the same fireball over and over again any day of the week, and twice on weekends.

That's a false dilemma my friend. The choice is not between the new system without spell casting and the old system with it. The choice is between the new system with spell casting and the new system without. I'll keep pointing this out until I'm blue in the face, because the posters on this thread just aren't getting it. Except for gpstr I believe.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:09 am

You don't like what they're doing to TES, don't buy it!

This. It's fine if folks don't agree with decisions or what not, but calling the devs lazy or incompetent or whatever is just crossing a line of common courtesy that really isn't needed. If someone truly feels that way then they are certainly free to not buy the game.

I however am going to enjoy the crap out of it, even if I don't agree with everything they've done, some of which I've been quite vocal about myself.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:11 am

That's a false dilemma my friend. The choice is not between the new system without spell casting and the old system with it. The choice is between the new system with spell casting and the new system without. I'll keep pointing this out until I'm blue in the face, because the posters on this thread just aren't getting it. Except for gpstr I believe.

Yes, it would be nice if they would've added more forms like these, but they definietly would've been limited in a big deal. Not to mention the spell combinations...

otherwise this, wanting moar attitude is not very fortunate. You cannot just add on more without removing or changing anything, without making the whole thing unstable. You just cannot...

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:55 am

idk i like the perks system
adds a bit of flavor to a dull skill gain
but i definitely agree with you about the armor
doesnt really matter if theres a lot of styles to me
just doesnt seem right in a practical sense with the whole impossible to get into a suit with the grieves attached haha
idk why they even maid the boots/gauntlets separate since itd look weird now that a majority of the armor is the same piece now
and alot of ppl are gonna be angry you cant run around like conan with a fur diaper/armor and no shirt (unless theres a 'suit' thats only the grieves)
but thats just me
you cant please everybody, and im sure the game will still be amazing

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:10 am

Dude, come on you're better than this.

You're just calling names, chill the [censored] down.

He's right though. Everyone keeps talking about the flaws in the spell making system or in the attributes system or in the armor system, and all I'm trying to say is that they should have eliminated those flaws by changing the systems rather than either eliminating them entirely or chopping off a piece. The point is that when faced with a dilemma: Adding system X will give players a lot of freedom. Hmm, that freedom makes things difficult for us as developers. Unfortunately it's also something that has helped make TES special. What should we do, cut it, or improve upon it?

And too often they choose to simply cut it.

Let me say this again: The choice is not between the old system and the new one (with the perks thing and spell casting). That choice has already been made. So those of you who are telling me that Bethesda shouldn't be questioned because they made spells more exciting, and you'd take that over spell making any day, need to listen to this: The choice is between eliminating something else, or improving it.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:14 pm

And I've said, you cannot always just "improve" things...