Other than traps I am not seeing anything that adds a tactical element. Honestly I don't see much of anything past previous spell casting systems other than looks. Everything else is just a hot key in disguise.

Yet its for the reason of freedom that they cut these things.
The overhaul on the magic system has been, generally, for the better.
You don't [censored] about developing games so don't tell them off for removing or changing things they had to.
And the motivation for the combined armours was for more sets and more npcs on the screen
I'm not calling you a whiner, but your arguments are full of half truths and misguided assumptions. You fail to look on the whole and only see the changes you don't like.
And this has nothing to do with PC vs Console gaming, but hardcoe vs Casual. When I heard Todd say that anyone could pick up this game and play I was a bit disappointed, but then I heard that the systems will be more dynamic and deep, yet more accessible.

Just because something is accessible doesn't mean its dumbed down.

If thats the way you think, but most arguments I have seen are not reasoned, constructive, or don't take everything into account(like the OP)


Here Here. I agree comletely to many people have been claiming TES as theirs.

Very well said OP, I agree.

I can't understand why so many people are in denial about the negative impact streamlining is having on the series. What's it going to take? Maybe if BGS decided to scrap the open-world in future in favour of a linear one (for similar reasons as those used to justify merging armour) ...maybe then people would realise.

So a choice of fireball, flame thrower, or explosion in all directions, and the option to dual wield and so dual cast, add nothing, but being able to make 50 versions of the same fireball, tweaked for maximum damage, was essential?

Skyrim will be epic, regardless of whatever changes are made.

So instead a giant unbalanced mess, we got a well designed choice system...

...


... horrible indeed...

this,

yah apparently the fire "ball" that did 20 dps was different from the one that did 21 dps :shrug:

Well, not really. Seeing as what you define as 'what's good for the series' is different to what other people may think is 'good for the series'. Sure, he has the right to voice his opinion but being arrogant about it doesn't really add anything to his argument.

Good point, people should be a little less " I WANT " and lets see what Bethesda comes up with

No those don't really add very much at all. Flame thrower, reflavored damage spells with a duration, a point blank AoE doesn't add much more than an AoE other than making it easier to deliver. Dual wield? That is not much different than me designing a spell with 2 effects, having the same spell in both hands is no different than a making a spell with a higher magnitude. They look better sure, but everything else is minor or a hot key in disguise. And none of these things in any ways justify the removal of spell making and in no way are tied to it.

I agree.
It seems that what I loved about TES in the first place will finally have totally died with Skyrim. Oblivion took the hatchet to so many little features I loved, but Skyrim takes away even more.
I am still very upset about spellmaking.

Im still not sure, Ill give Skyrim an honest try. But maybe it will be the last Bethesda game I will ever play.
if the game turn out as I fear and not much of the wonderful choice and freedom I loved about Daggerfall and Morrowind remain I will have to move on.
I hope I wont have to and Im actually a bit saddened to have to write the above, but Im not someone who continues to purchase ham and cheese sandwiches when the ham has been taken out and only the name reminds of what is lost.

I agree with you here, although i'm kinda on the other side of the fence. But the principle i still agree with. I don't think there's anything wrong with people voicing an issue they have with the potential game, but if you're going to make a thread based on a certain issue its vital in the interest of fairness that you weigh up both the pros and cons of the issue. If people can formulate a well balanced argument then kudos to them, its the people who constantly list negative upon negative about a game they haven't even played yet who annoy me.

I'm sorry, but are you listening to yourself on these two? Your just complaining for the sake of complaining. Mark and Recall and Levitation aren't just inconvenient, your being nieve. They literally LIMIT the amount of things the developer can do with the game. No more getting takin prisoner, or being stuck in a dungeon for a perfectly legit story related reason. Why? Because you could just recall right out. No more directing the players movement, to tell a story, control events, and direct gameplay. Why? Because they can just levitate right out!

And that sentence about armor, just sounds rediculous. They combined them so they dont clip and look like garbage. They are literally making it so bad things can't happen, and all you can do is complain? Wow. If you hate the game so much, don't buy it. Problem solved. Wait, let me guess, you would just complain about that too, wouldn't you?

Everyone has their own opinions on what's good for the series... but some of those opinions are more right than others. That's the way life works i'm afraid.

Thats the thing though... morrowind had clipping issues sure, but I never had a clipping problem in oblivion... not at any time ever in my 1000 hours of gameplay.

I see where the OP is coming from, but I think this is a case of "work smarter, not harder" in regards to the dev team. They have found more efficient ways of getting to a place that affords more variety and rewarding gameplay than before.

I am all for complexity and intricacy but I'm also very interested to see how this new system will pan out. I loathed the perk trees of Dragon Age 2 and Witcher 2 so hopefully this system is done with those terrible executions in mind.

As for gamesas's preventative measures like Mark and Recall removal and Levitation removal, I think this is the wrong approach. As Todd has said many times they want to give players the tools and let players "make" the game they want to play. This is not referring to the creation kit, but the game itself. The idea that these spells break the game, in light of that philosophy, makes no sense. My response is "so what?" If you want to really "direct" my experience you can always justify some way to have levitate and mark/recall spells not available (some kind of magical barrier or dampener - something Morrowind modders figured out pretty quickly) and if you allow me to have those spells I don't "break the game," I WIN THE QUEST. The issue here is that gamesas's quest-lines have been getting more and more linear, and they simply don't want to account for much more player ingenuity than they already have to. This is not so much laziness as it is time and budget. Simply adding one of those spells would up the time a QA team needed to test every instance of the game and try to use that spell to get out of, or circumvent it. Personally, it's the wrong approach as far as I'm concerned, but I understand why they decided on it.

Okay, what is that important thing that is gone and cannot be done in Skyrim in any shape or form that could be done in Oblivion or Morrowind?

Honestly? You really think different ways to cast the same spell on the fly will add nothing to the Game? And the different side effects from different elements? Do they add nothing compared to the glory of an easy to abuse spell making system that, once you had it sussed, allowed spells that removed every trace of challenge from the game?

Spell making wasn't removed, it just hasn't been added to the new system, because of difficulty adding it in a satisfying way, remember Beth doesn't wanna do something if it can't be done adequately. Also duelwielding spells adds tactical decision because it's sacrificing safety for more power. Fire now damage over time, and linger behind when inflaming the environment, while frost slows down, these a now properties of the elements not something you need to add, as soon as something has to do with fire, it now has these properties by definition of the element.

I think he likes that magic system being basically colored balls that do specific effects, instead of actual fire that burns ice that freezes ...etc

maybe he also wants the old archery and speech wheel system back

Being 'more right' is a purely subjective matter. People who want Morrowind 2 will think streamlining the game is 'less right', guys who want Skyrim will think its 'more right'.

If you can give me any facts that prove that Bethesda are ruining the series, then i'll be happy to concede.

I see it totally the other way around.
Removing levitation and mark and recall is an invitation to what I call lazy level design.

I mean the sort of levels I saw on my NES 8 bit in 1985. Where a rock is conveniently just to high too jump over, so you have to take the long way around.
That is false difficulty and a device to make a small world seem bigger.
Oblivion dungeons I found particularly horrible just because of this. I have seen dungeons like this twenty years before, only with worse graphics.
One long windy path with levers.

I have yet to see one valid example of a quest or dungeon that is better with a fixed jump height and no levitation or teleportation than one without.
Easier to design, yes.

How is adding spell casting types means no spell making? do you know how freaking happy that would make alot of people that is the epicness of chaining frost and lightining together in a cloud?


or a True Wizards fury where Fire,Ice and shock are spewed forth in a massive torrent of "oh hell yes I am a badass" ?





ok but see this is what imo your doing wrong, your reading inbetween the lines, its called the internet, who cares what he thinks of people who likes streamlining? does it apply to you? does it make you feel less of a human being when he is one as well? IGNORE IT I feel its better for one to responed to post based on its Principle/content and not how you -think- the other guy is/acting/saying/feeling.

your thoughts work in reverse to and is used far more often from my experience anyway.....I mean...look at this thread.

Wanna know something that limits the developers far more? Having an open-world. Think how much they could direct the players movement, tell a story, control events, and direct gameplay if the gameworld was linear.

TES is supposed to be about player freedom. That's what separates it from all the linear, story-driven RPGs out there. :confused: