BTW Whitesuit, you made a thread once about a letter to bethesda, but the thread got closed before I could give you an answer.
Okay, I've bitten all the way through my tongue and ground my teeth to dust, but here is my revised letter.
Hey guys,
[1] First of all I'm a huge fan of your games and I have been for over ten years now. Since I’ve been a PC gamer since my potty-training days, I really appreciate your tendency to build games with staggering depth, complexity, and detail. I love the freedom present in the elder scrolls series; not only the freedom to explore the massive worlds you provide me with, but the freedom to build my character from the ground up exactly as I choose to.
[2] I realize that in a world where not everyone is a hardcoe gamer; used to the arduous process of building a character in an RPG, it is necessary for companies that want to make good money to ensure that their games are accessible to a wider audience. That also means that many of the features we so-called “hardcoe gamers” love are painfully extricated from our favorite game franchises. For example, many item types that were in Morrowind were not included in Oblivion.
[1] I think you should change this, you imply that you appriciate depth, complexity, and detail because you are a PC gamer, instead of just being a person who appreciates these qualities, regardless of platform.
[2] This should be changed as well, you claim features hardcoe gamers loved were excluded, but don't state which, bethesda can't read your mind, and they don't have a chance to try if they don't know what kind of features your talking about. You also then state "Item types", please don't tell me it's medium armor, crossbows, etc. because none of these were hardcoe features, multiple games which are considered more "casual" have more weapon types than TES, Farmville probably have more diversity in there tools, there does not exists a gamer who played Oblivion and thought, "hmm, this is all so much more accessible with less weapon types", all wanted more stuff, casual or hardcoe.
(1) Throwing weapons, spears, crossbows, medium armor, the differentiation between long and short bladed weapons, and the axe weapon classification were all removed. I loved the complexity that those items brought to the game. I had to choose whether I would be skilled with long or short bladed weapons, whether I would prefer to wear light, medium, or heavy armor. Those choices gave me an immersive level of control over my character. I was a very sad fan when I installed Oblivion, only to find that my options were slightly fewer this time around.
(2) “Okay,” I thought, “I can deal with this. I still have a helluva lotta customization options.” Then I took a look at the world map and realized I could instantly travel to any city with the press of a button. “What the hell?” said I. “I remember having to pack for my journeys, and walk for half an hour before I arrived.” It’s a sad state of affairs when I don’t have to worry about where I’m going, or how I’m going to get there in an elder scrolls game. And the level scaling doesn’t help either. I could walk out anywhere into the wilderness with full confidence that all of the enemies will be just easy enough for me to beat. It sure makes the game world a whole lot less enigmatic and threatening.
(1) They weren't all removed, but the skills governing them were merged, this should be corrected to show you have the correct understanding of what is and what isn't in Oblivion. I personally have a problem with medium armor because it's weird to be totally good at medium, but svck at light, or heavy, the difference is too minor to deserve a separate skill.
(2) The problem with Oblivion wasn't that you could travel everywhere, the problem was the lack of random encounters, which was also a problem in Morrowind. Fast Travel is a mechanic for the player not the character, it did not make any sense why it was tied to a traveling service in Morrowind. Fast Travel is when The Player skips time The Character travels real time. Choosing to travel on foot should not force you to stay real time with the character.
The problem of Level scaling wasn't that it was too easy, it was that it got too hard. Say that you could walk across the world with full confidence that enemies would be easy, implies that you haven't played past level 13, where a cougar can kill i about 6 hits depending on your endurance. Or entered a gate at level 6 with clannfears staggering you to death.
(1) Don’t get me wrong, I played Oblivion and I loved it. But there was this nagging feeling in the back of my mind the whole time, that many aspects of the game’s experience had been lobotomized for the sake of mass market appeal. The interface was designed for controllers, and as mentioned before much of the excessive depth was gone completely.
And then Skyrim was announced. I nearly went through the roof with excitement. And then I read that there were only three attributes.
(2) What the hell guys? Are you making an action game now? I don’t want to be spoon-fed my gaming experiences, I want to build my character with the sweat of my brow from tens of attribute and skill options. And most importantly I don’t want to just “Jump into the action” in an RPG. I don’t know what sort of IP you think you’ve got on your hands with Skyrim, but it’s not the next installment of
(1) The interface was not designed for controllers, the issue is that some felt that it was designed to be looked at on a TV from a coach. This has also been addressed by the developers, who will not make the text in your face on the PC.
(2) This is just gibberish, nothing you have stated up until now has made any indication that you are being spoon fed, nothing about three attributes indicates you being spoon fed. Lose the sweat of your brow, like you would actually get sweat off your brow from making a character of 10 attributes, and you don't make your character off 10 attributes, all characters have 10 attributes, if anything you make it from the skills. Also TES has been an First Person Action sandbox Roleplaying Game, since arena, notice the distinct lack of dialog options in all the games, and no skill/attribute specific dialog, all of the main quests involve combat, and violence, there force is freedom. The only thing right about this part is that skyrim is not the next installment in a generic console shooter.
My point is that the trend I’ve been observing here is one toward simple, easily digestible, spoon fed game-play. Maybe three attributes sounds like a staggering amount of choice when you’re coming from the land of, Call of Halo: Gears of Warfare 2. But having played Morrowind, I feel like I’m getting left out in the cold here. I’ve seen Todd say that all of the attributes that were taken out have been either distilled into the three that yet remain, or are taken care of with perks. I’m inclined to trust him with the perks thing, even though I really don’t like the idea. But as far as this whole idea of distilled attributes goes: I feel like you’ve taken away my piping hot, savory, delicious plate of steak, potatoes, broccoli, mushrooms, and grilled onions, and replaced it all with a pile of re-hydrated nutrient powder, and a disclaimer of “Don’t worry, all of the nutrients you like so much in all of those foods are right here in this delicious paste!!”
None of the things you have stated give any indication of this, you then mix a load of shooters as if they are similar, showing your lacking knowledge of Gears of War, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, and Halo, will not improve your argument.
I feel like you’ve missed the point. The reason we liked the attributes wasn’t that they were efficient. It was because they allowed maximum customization, and provided a fantastic level of depth to the game world. It was cool to imagine that I was increasing my character’s intelligence, which would have the effect of increasing my magicka. I would rather build my character that way, rather than magically “upping” some completely intangible thing like Magicka.
If they were inefficient, then they wouldn't allow for maximum customization, especially given that their redundancy. There was no depth to them, hence they were redundant. Putting points in intelligence, raised Magicka, you might as well just put points in Magicka. I could also role a ball into a book which would then tip over to turn on the light, or I could just turn on the light. The other method is redundant, and is not depth. I basically is saying that you want to retain the redundant way, simply for the cool factor.
Boiling the game’s attributes down to “what they really mean in terms of game-play” might be make sense to an action gamer, but for someone who likes role-playing-games it feels silly, because part of the game play in an RPG is building your character’s attributes. The whole point of the character’s various bars (health, magicka, stamina) is that they are an expression of the character’s attributes in a practical way for the player. My question is: “what makes you think that all we want out of the attribute system is practicality?” I can’t speak for everyone, but for me at least, part of the fun was determining explicitly –that is, in game- what my character’s attributes are. How can I characterize myself in game if all I have to go on is how long I can run, how many hits I can take before I die, and how much time I can spend using my brain to cast spells.
This is nonsense. It's a game, so obviously it needs to be represented in gameplay, even in other more conventional rpgs, attributes are represented as gameplay, but TES is not just an Rpg, and has never been like any other rpg, and so Attributes cannot be expressed the same way. You basically say it yourself,
"The whole point of the character’s various bars (health, magicka, stamina) is that they are an expression of the character’s attributes in a practical way for the player.", If attributes only represent health/magic/stamina, then they are redundant, and might as well not be there. In other rpgs, they have other functions than simply this, other games that aren't TES.
As an example, a character who was formerly explicitly defined as an intelligent, weak, slothful, easily tired, unlucky, willful, and charismatic spell caster becomes a man with 50 health, 55 endurance, and 130 magicka. Wow, I really feel like I’m role-playing now.
Most of these are character traits, some of which can probably be picked as perks. If you have a high magicka, then of course you are intelligent, because this was what intelligence governed. Don't you see, having intelligence that would give 130 magicka, would change nothing other than that intelligence was present, it is basically a cosmetic appearance.
“Yeah but then the rest is left up to you!” says Howard, “You get to define your character by how you play from that point on!” That’s true enough, but the attribute system did the same thing! The only difference is that how I played in the game was reflected in something more than how much my health, endurance, and magicka bars went up. Extrapolating character definition from derived attributes is just backwards.
Yes they did the same thing, hence redundancy, no they did not reflect something more, they indirectly effected health/magicka/stamina, another link in a chain that requires a single link. You didn't see stats of other people, but you still knew who was powerful and who wasn't, you don't need this to create your role and express it, especially not now when we cannot be a jack of all trades. Actually removing attributes might make your character even more unique, because you could get 100 in everything and be exactly like anybody else regardless of race/gender/whatever, now where most of the power lies in the perks, two people can have 100 in every skill and not even come close to be similar, because they can only pick 50 perks of 280 (number including upgrades).
I really, REALLY, want to be excited about Skyrim. The graphics, conversation system, crafting, jobs/activities, dragons, radiant story system, and combat system all look fantastic. Just tell me I’ll be able to build my character exactly the way I want to, with a ridiculous number of customization options, and I’ll be able to overlook all of the game’s other amputations for the sake of the industry’s continued profitability.
Thanks for reading my wall-o-text,
-Kyle
Customization will be through gameplay, and what you choose will actually matter now, to a much greater extend than before. I personally look forward to be able to get to characters who will actually be different than my other characters, not because I impose a rule to not level a specific skill, but because even if I did level that skill, I would not able to achieve the same level of power.
» Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:26 am 
must be frustration. 
about since soul gems didnt hold spell effects...they held souls....... 
