Taking the easy way out : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:57 am

Also to the one that said "if thats the way I think" oh no thats just how it is here all of a sudden, if you are not praising Skyrim in your sleep, you are a whiner someone, like the OP can't even discuss their concerns without getting bashed...which this thread serves a testament to, the information is there and the devs have been pretty clear what is not, and people are -STILL- disputing that, for instance we already knew/had an Idea armor was merged, for months, and then the E3 gave more evidence, and then the run around with Ashley cheng and people STILL said "you guys are alarmist they aren't merge shut up Skyrim will be epic" it took nothing less then a Dev coming out and saying it straight up that its merged and people are STILL defending it :lmao: take it what you will, the dissonance is uncanny, I don't absolutely care, but when I see people getting bashed because they are bringning something to attention, I like to raise a flag on it.

Hey I was convinced of the Merge after the E3 show. I'm neutral BTW. I see the advantages and disadvantages.
Secondly as I said the OP is neither Reasoned or constructive. He points out what he doesn't like then exaggerated.
He said that Because of these things the game would lose its freedom aspect, but I don't see how. Is it true freedom that I can wear different greaves and curiass, not really.
Essential NPCs, key locked doors, character classes, etc restrict freedom. Games with total freedom Morrowind, Just Cause 2, tend to be shallow.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:24 am

Why does everyone talk about redundancy as if its a bad thing?
Redundancy is a good thing, ask any biologist.
Its especially good in an RPG where it means that vastly different playstyles can perform similar feats.

Not if they do the exact same thing, that's redundancy.

The variety you seek is achieving the same end in a different way.

For example, attributes and skills are both numbers between 1-100 that you have to raise to get better, and you raise them by using those. That's redundant.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:53 am

I have deleted a number of posts from this topic, the amount of rudeness on these forums amazes me and it is not being allowed to continue.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:00 am

While what you said about "an RPG" is true, this is not just "an RPG" we're talking about here, it's TES. And TES is defined, at least partially, by it's customization.

And this TES will be more customizable than any before it. With the addition of so many options to the character creator (scars, beards, face paint, body sizes, etc.), to having a totally open classless system, to the fairly staggering line up of perks being added, to the addition of the dual wielding mechanics, to the increased variety of armor style, forging, enchanting, larger lineup of unique spells, rp'ing mechanics for friendships/romances and performing jobs, and who knows what else.

All that is offset by the loss of pants and spell making?

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:30 am

And this TES will be more customizable than any before it. With the addition of so many options to the character creator (scars, beards, face paint, body sizes, etc.), to having a totally open classless system, to the fairly staggering line up of perks being added, to the addition of the dual wielding mechanics, to the increased variety of armor style, forging, enchanting, larger lineup of unique spells, rp'ing mechanics for friendships/romances and performing jobs, and who knows what else.

All that is offset by the loss of pants and spell making?

Regarding the increased variety of armor style, i'll just repeat what gpstr said earlier - 10 versions of two separate things will always provide you with MORE options than 20 versions of one thing.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:40 am

Regarding the increased variety of armor style, i'll just repeat what gpstr said earlier - 10 versions of two separate things will always provide you with MORE options than 20 versions of one thing.

But it won't provide less clipping and more NPC's on screen at once. This is the best news since they announced they cut attributes and classes. I'm all for more livelier cities and towns.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:35 am

Because making better looking armor and more armor varieties was the lazy way to do it.

How do you know this?

But it won't provide less clipping and more NPC's on screen at once. This is the best news since they announced they cut attributes and classes. I'm all for more livelier cities and towns.

How does this effect how many NPC's are on the screen at once?

I'm not defying either of you, I'm purely asking the question. :hehe:

» Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:40 pm

Allow me to clarify my position a little bit here. I don't think that Bethesda has been lazy with the development of the game as a whole. In fact they have done a lot of really cool things with the game. I was only pointing out that when faced with a feature that yields increased player freedom but creates some manner of development issue, they choose to lobotomize that feature (or remove it entirely) rather than improve it, or solve the problem with some new system. Obviously not developing a new system is the easier thing to do. And if they don't have the time to do so then I suppose I can live with that. But the idea that the best solution to that kind of a problem is to remove gameplay choices in a game supposedly all about gameplay choices drives me crazy.

One more thing. I really don't understand why the defense against the sort of argument I'm making is to say that the system they implemented is better than the old one. In every case that I can think of, the people that say that are absolutely correct. It is much better to have more perks for the skills this time around. More inventive spells can only mean better gameplay. The lack of classes and the new level up mechanics will shove the character sheet further under the hood and make the game more fun at the same time. And if the armor types are more creative then everyone will benefit.

All I'm saying is that we can have all of those things and retain the freedom we've come to expect from the series. Many of the cuts from the game have simply been for the convenience of the developers. And the thing that gets me the most is that it's not as though the new feature and the feature that was cut are mutually exclusive either.

Oh and I saw a post that said something about me not ""censored" developing games" or something like that, which I assumed was something along the lines of me not "knowing about developing games" Pahahahaha :rofl:

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:56 am

Kudos. That's a well-written and cogent anolysis of a few of the fundamental flaws I've noted in the design process of this game.

First, there's the obvious preference for eliminating potentially troublesome mechanics instead of balancing them. Bluntly, that's just cheap and lazy.

Then there's this move toward, as you so neatly phrase it, "neat little boxes." Though judging from the (often barely literate) support I see for those decisions, I can, much though it saddens me, see why that's being done.

The part of all that that bothers me though is the fairly straightforward misrepresentation of the neat little boxes as providing more choices rather than fewer. Apparently many people can't discern the difference between multiplicative choices and additive choices, and can't understand how 10 versions of two separate things will always provide you with MORE options than 20 versions of one thing. And since I would at least assume that those at Beth do recognize the difference there, I can only assume that their continuing claims that the latter provides more options is simply a deliberate misrepresentation.

Ah but it's all for naught..... the machine's long since in motion and out of our control.....

This.
/Thread

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:10 am

All I'm saying is that we can have all of those things and retain the freedom we've come to expect from the series. Many of the cuts from the game have simply been for the convenience of the developers. And the thing that gets me the most is that it's not as though the new feature and the feature that was cut are mutually exclusive either.

Because I'd like to play the game some time this century and not have to pay $600 for it because they developed the gaming equivalent of Titanic.

Time/Money/Resources. Could they theoretically have included every single suggestion and game mechanic proposed here on the forum? Sure if they had a budget the size of NASA and enlisted every developer in the industry with Blizzard's "it's done when it's done" attitude. That's a bit unrealistic though isn't it?

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:19 am

"Hey, this student hasn't turned in a single math assignment all year."

"Well sure, but he is acing history so it's all good right."

"What? But that... how does that address the math problem?"

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:23 am

And this TES will be more customizable than any before it. With the addition of so many options to the character creator (scars, beards, face paint, body sizes, etc.), to having a totally open classless system, to the fairly staggering line up of perks being added, to the addition of the dual wielding mechanics, to the increased variety of armor style, forging, enchanting, larger lineup of unique spells, rp'ing mechanics for friendships/romances and performing jobs, and who knows what else.

All that is offset by the loss of pants and spell making?

Read my post above. But basically, all of those things you mentioned are great, and I'm really excited for them! But they are irrelevant. I'm talking about the fact that the features that were cut:

1. Are not mutually exclusive with the new features

2. Are staples of the elder scrolls series

3. Allow for a degree of player freedom that admittedly causes some problems for the developers

4. Should be compensated for with new systems rather than cut. That's what I mean by "Taking the easy way out"

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:14 am

Well, how do I feel about these changes?

-Merged Armor - I can see why other people are disappointed by this, but myself, I never really mixed armor, unless I was missing a certain piece of a certain material I wanted to wear. (You have to look at the bright side though - There will be more armor types because of the merged armor.)

-No Creating Spells - Yeah, this is a bit of a bummer. I'm normally a warrior type my first playthrough, and usually wizardly types on some subsequent playthroughs, so it doesn't affect me that much. Now, we do have a positive. I think the actual spell effects look much cooler than they have ever looked before. The look of it in Oblivion made playing a mage character kind of bland. I think that if they would have put more of a focus on enabling the player to create spells, I'm not certain they would look this good.

-Perk System - I really liked the perk system in Fallout 3. I think it's one of the best ways to market the game to Fallout 3 fans who have never played an ES game before. I'm happy its being expanded on in Skyrim, where in Oblivion, the perk system was much more simplified (When you reached certain levels of skills, you got perks automatically - much more exciting to choose them). I think it will make leveling up so much fun, because you get a new perk, which was a strong point of Fallout 3 (My only concern is that the 280 individual perks won't be unique enough and many uninteresting.).

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:37 am

But it won't provide less clipping and more NPC's on screen at once. This is the best news since they announced they cut attributes and classes. I'm all for more livelier cities and towns.

This, but of course that is just not good enough for some 'people'... They want mismatched armour pieces that clip horribly so they can pretend their fantasy life simulator gives them more freedom...

'Best' is a strong word... but I know that my opinion is better than a lot of peoples, the same way that I know I have superior taste in music to people who listen to Nickelback. It's just something you 'know' once you reach a certain level of understanding about something.

Wow, just wow... Although I'm curious, how is the view from up there?

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:17 am

Because I'd like to play the game some time this century and not have to pay $600 for it because they developed the gaming equivalent of Titanic.

Time/Money/Resources. Could they theoretically have included every single suggestion and game mechanic proposed here on the forum? Sure if they had a budget the size of NASA and enlisted every developer in the industry with Blizzard's "it's done when it's done" attitude. That's a bit unrealistic though isn't it?

Give me a team of six people and four to six months, and I'll build you a system that allows for sufficiently creative and elegant armor designs and is compatible with the new animation system and still allows for separate chest, leg, and shoulder spots, without awful clipping. The only bottleneck might be the hardware on the consoles.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:07 pm

2. Are staples of the elder scrolls series

You'd be hard pressed to convince me pants are a defining attribute of the TES experience.

3. Allow for a degree of player freedom that admittedly causes some problems for the developers

From where I'm sitting we'll have more freedom than ever.

4. Should be compensated for with new systems rather than cut. That's what I mean by "Taking the easy way out"

So all the new things being added aren't compensation enough for you? Oh right, you are ignoring the things added to make your argument.....

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:44 am

I guess they took more from Apple than just the inspiration for the interface design.

I wouldn't have taken anything from Apple. Right now, the UI looks like the game is being played on an iphone.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:44 am

This, but of course that is just not good enough for some 'people'... They want mismatched armour pieces that clip horribly so they can pretend their fantasy life simulator gives them more freedom...

Wow, just wow... Although I'm curious, how is the view from you there?

So my argument is invalid because I'm only a person in the technical sense. Oookay then...

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:46 am

You'd be hard pressed to convince me pants are a defining attribute of the TES experience.

From where I'm sitting we'll have more freedom than ever.

So all the new things being added aren't compensation enough for you? Oh right, you are ignoring the things added to make your argument.....

You really need to read what I wrote before. Sure I'm happy about all of the new stuff. But that's not the point.

What I meant by compensation wasn't that they should add other, shinier things to appease me, but that they should write a system that will compensate for the design issues that are associated with the feature.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:54 pm

So all the new things being added aren't compensation enough for you? Oh right, you are ignoring the things added to make your argument.....

What exactly is being added again? A bunch of new quests, possibly more armor (no confirmation on quantity), possibly more NPCs on screen (no confirmation on quantity), perks, dual wielding, crafting? Am I missing anything? A lot of this should be sort of expected. Sequels are supposed to expand upon their predecessors. The last three I mostly support (though I'll need more info on perks before I can tell if their appropriate or obnoxious).

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:42 pm

Because thinking up, designing, implementing, testing, refining 280+ perks was the lazy way instead of slapping on the old 1-100 and calling it done.

280 unique perks, or 280 lackluster perks? It really depends on what those perks are and whether they are actually good (or in this sense, well thought up) that makes them lazy or not.

Because revamping the way spells work, adding in different ways to cast like projectile, streaming, creating runes, etc was the lazy way to do it.

Spell making is different from the way in which spells are cast. I think you and I both know that but you didn't have a counter to what he said, so you completely veered off his point.

Because redesigning, implementing, testing, and coming up with all new skills/spells and effects was the lazy way to do it.

Refining and making skills better rather than giving them the ax because of inconvenience is the best approach.

Because making better looking armor and more armor varieties was the lazy way to do it.

They added more armor in oblivion within the expansion packs, so they could really do the same in Skyrim instead of combining it. Diversity does not entail the combining of armor, rather implementing different styles of armor.

» Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:14 pm

"Hey, this student hasn't turned in a single math assignment all year."

"Well sure, but he is acing history so it's all good right."

"What? But that... how does that address the math problem?"

Exactly. Thank you.

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:52 am

This, but of course that is just not good enough for some 'people'... They want mismatched armour pieces that clip horribly so they can pretend their fantasy life simulator gives them more freedom...

Funny that. I mixed leather armor with regular clothing in Oblivion and it matched perfectly, with no clipping issues whatsoever. Sure as hell looked better than wearing a full set of armor or a dress.

Wow, just wow... Although I'm curious, how is the view from up there?

Super. :wavey:

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:21 am

The cost of all of these changes is freedom. We no longer have the freedom, we no longer have the freedom, freedom rather than amputate one of its vital organs.

Please discuss.

You American by chance?

» Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:21 pm

You American by chance?

Yes I am. Why is that relevant?