I have noticed a rather disturbing trend in the details we have heard so far about Skyrim.

• The attribute system has been replaced with a perk tree system. So rather than building your character with a combination of 1 to 100 skill scales, you build him with perks that package those abilities into neat little ability boxes.
  
• There is no longer any spell making. Instead, Bethesda is giving us pre packaged spells that are sealed off - uneditable.
  
• There are fewer skills and spells. Many of the ones that were removed were axed because they allowed the player to do things that are inconvenient for a developer. e.g. mark and recall, acrobatics, etc.
  
• Two of the armor slots have been welded togeter, and one of the big motivations for the change was that players might combine two pieces of armor that would either look funny, or clip together awfully.

Noticing a pattern here? Rather than allow us to customize things, they seal them off and hand them to us in a neat little box. I guess they took more from Apple than just the inspiration for the interface design. The cost of all of these changes is freedom. We no longer have the freedom to mix and match the armor pieces on our bodies, we no longer have the freedom to define our characters with a TES style stats system (hello Diablo), we can no longer create our own spells, and we can no longer run faster than other character by virtue of a skill (because running is something you can clearly only get better at in huge jumps, i.e. perks). Sure it might be a challenge to design cool looking armor styles that all work with each other. Sure it might take some more work to make an accessible spell making system that is compatible with the new casting mechanics. Sure it might even be nearly impossible to see the benefits of catering to a PC audience that wants more customization instead of less in the character development. But I wish when faced with the choice of doing a little more work to make a given system work, or simplifying it awfully, they would choose to solve the problems associated with player freedom rather than amputate one of its vital organs.

Please discuss.

Allthough I partly agree with you. Expect the usual crowd of people saying you're just whining for the sake of whining blablabla.Honestly I'd advice you to join some of the many other threads on these specific issues. Starting a new general one wont do any good.

And yet characters will end up being far more unique because of the perk system. And magic looks more fun than it ever has in any elder scrolls game. Regardless of spell count. At the bottom level this is their game that they want to make. Whether or not you buy or play is up to you. Watch any interview with Todd Howard; he can be heard saying "We always create the games WE would want to play." And since they are making the game, they can do whatever they damn well please. So stop complaining about what features are or are not in the game. Let them do what they want, if you don't approve, then move on. They do not owe you anything.

as much as i would love a game tailored to exactly what i want in the game, it just isnt going to happen....... ever. because fans want different things. you cant just develop a game for a set group, it would be uninspiring. i also think people need to remeber this is bethesda's game not ours.

having no spellcrafting has never been confirmed.

and the perk tree is basically the same, but not you create your character as you go instead of right at the beginning.

• The attribute system has been replaced with a perk tree system. So rather than building your character with a combination of 1 to 100 skill scales, you build him with perks that package those abilities into neat little ability boxes.

Because thinking up, designing, implementing, testing, refining 280+ perks was the lazy way instead of slapping on the old 1-100 and calling it done.

• There is no longer any spell making. Instead, Bethesda is giving us pre packaged spells that are sealed off - uneditable.

Because revamping the way spells work, adding in different ways to cast like projectile, streaming, creating runes, etc was the lazy way to do it.

• There are fewer skills and spells. Many of the ones that were removed were axed because they allowed the player to do things that are inconvenient for a developer. e.g. mark and recall, acrobatics, etc.

Because redesigning, implementing, testing, and coming up with all new skills/spells and effects was the lazy way to do it.

• Two of the armor slots have been welded togeter, and one of the big motivations for the change was that players might combine two pieces of armor that would either look funny, or clip together awfully.

Because making better looking armor and more armor varieties was the lazy way to do it.

Yeah I totally see your point..... :rolleyes:

Disagree with the OP, our characters will have more customization not less due to the changes.

To be fair though, they've added quite a lot, compared to what they cut. So I wouldn't call it taking the easy way out.

I think you make a good point by saying that it's easier on developers to work within fixed "boxes". And this could also be the main gripe most people have with Skyrim and Oblivion earlier: By cutting the world into said boxes, the games are getting closer to corridor-games like The Witcher and Dragon Age, and such developments run contrary to an open world game.

There is a delicate balance between freedom and restrictions, and both have their benefits; Which is why The Witcher and Elder Scrolls are both great games, but in their own way. If they want to stay true to their "Do what you want" slogan, Beth better remember this once in a while.

I think that the only reason the Bethesda is going to be able to take the easy way out is because they set the bar so low with Oblivion...

I thought Todd Howerd said there leting the player custimze there character even more (how your guy looks and HIS SKILLs) :slap: :tes:

This post should have ended the discussion. Couldn't have said it better.

That one is always my favorite.

Instead of being able to level up all your skills to 100 (in Oblivion) and get all the bonuses, you'll now have skills ranked 1-100 plus a limited choice of perks to customize those skills further. So, the skill system is deeper, since you can't just max them all out like in older games.



In return for those spells being more complex - you have to admit that the spells in Oblivion were pretty simplistic (until you get into "let's powergame the system" spell weakness combos).





Honestly, the skill system is more customizable in Skyrim - in Oblivion, there was no customization... you just leveled up skills, and got automatic perks at 25/50/75/100. In Skyrim, you can make choices on how to further develop your skills, rather than just getting automatic things.

Well when they were making it they set the bar pretty high. They just had to cut half the stuff they made because Microsoft was too incompetent to release a console that was morep owerful than the PS2... and that could hold more data on the DVD

I was about to post something along the lines of this. Nice explanation. Unfortunately, people will never be 100% satisfied. I personally like how they've changed the game, and can not wait for Skyrim.

Let's face it, spellmaking is probably out. Personally I am fine with that, the new ways of casting spells should add tactical elements, that make up for it's removal. And while spellmaking gave loads of options, it didn't require you to make any meaningful choices. my opinion, nothing more of course but I think an rpg is not defined by options and customisation, but by any choices you are forced to make, and the consequences of those choices.
As to saying 'the easy way out', surely that would be Oblivion 2?

Kudos. That's a well-written and cogent anolysis of a few of the fundamental flaws I've noted in the design process of this game.

First, there's the obvious preference for eliminating potentially troublesome mechanics instead of balancing them. Bluntly, that's just cheap and lazy.

Then there's this move toward, as you so neatly phrase it, "neat little boxes." Though judging from the (often barely literate) support I see for those decisions, I can, much though it saddens me, see why that's being done.

The part of all that that bothers me though is the fairly straightforward misrepresentation of the neat little boxes as providing more choices rather than fewer. Apparently many people can't discern the difference between multiplicative choices and additive choices, and can't understand how 10 versions of two separate things will always provide you with MORE options than 20 versions of one thing. And since I would at least assume that those at Beth do recognize the difference there, I can only assume that their continuing claims that the latter provides more options is simply a deliberate misrepresentation.

Ah but it's all for naught..... the machine's long since in motion and out of our control.....

I think this sums it up pretty good. Bethesda knows that they can't make a game that everybody will think is great. What they can do is make a game that they think is great, and then release Mod Tools so that others can tweak it to their own greatness. It makes much more sense for Bethesda to make a game that most people will like, and the devoted will mod, than make a game for the devoted (who will likley still mod things in) and expect the casual TES person to get the mods.

Perks require much more effort and are harder to implement than just adding a handful of factors to the game's calculations (which is what attributes are). Pretending that they are taking the easy way out be exchanging them is silly.

Following that logic, they shouldn't release it then either, since it's "for their eyes only". As a company they job is to make people happy by producing a good product which will give them money. If they start doing things "how they want", inevitably they will just piss of people and lose their fanbase.

SR seems to be giving me more viable options than both MW and OB because I think the options that are in the game seem more interesting and better balance to me.

Pretty much, the developers even said themselves that the easiest thing they could do was just add new skills because the former skills were shallow, nothing but a label and a number, nothing else no depth whatsoever, instead they the current schools and spells deeper, to make the difference between a fireball and a frostball more than just a flashy color. Now they behave like the actual elements they are, we can now make traps of them, and use them tactically, because of the properties inherent in those elements.

Yeah they chose the easy way out by assigning a whole team to the sole AI of dragons.

Yeah they chose the easy way out by developing a rune language explicitly for that race.

:rolleyes:

While the new spell system is great I don't see how that fact alone justifies the removal of spell making. Similarly I believe everyone keeps making some serious assumptions as to the "great variety" of armor you're going to get considering they haven't even played it yet.

Why do developers always get whined at when they do something different, even when their decisions are so OBVIOUSLY better than what was in the previous game. I swear it's like you people just wanted them to rerelease Morrowind or Oblivion. God, just let them improve the series.