Yes, but I think the line between true inquiry of a thing and "virulently disagreeing" has become so thin in the lore forum recently, it's hampering dialogue. But I am very pedantic person. I don't think disaagreement is needed, sometimes, once you understand something, it speaks for itself. Vomiting opinions onto inquiry speaks more about people wanting to make a statement now, than having patience to see a discussion through.



This is nothing new, and definately not a slight on the Tribunal. I didn't see Talos asking Alinor's opinion on being [censored]-slapped into a new timeline. The chaos in Morrowind, after the Dwemer and Nords, and the unfortunate treachery of Dagoth Ur, needed a strong godhead. etc etc.




Agreed. It's a big if, though.

While I haven't been on this particular forum terribly long, it would certainly seem to me that one "taking sides" seems to lead to someone else "taking sides" against that. Something I noticed you participating in during this very thread, yourself.

I am aware of what a Socratic dialogue is. Actually, I was meaning to imply that someone was creating secondary or even tertiary accounts to respond to their own points in order to create a fake debate wherein the auxiliary accounts eventually agree with the main account, thereby creating the illusion of agreement and support for points where perhaps there is none.



I would have to argue that the division of pure good versus pure evil stems from fundamental psychological workings of the human brain as opposed to the cultural contribution of some pre-Medieval civilization. This type of thinking can be found anywhere ranging from cults to war propaganda or from classic Disney movies to malicious gossip. The tendency to put things into camps of good vs. evil might as well have been around since the first instances of tribal warfare, which ought to predate the Sassanid Empire by a couple thousand years.

Then it is my mistake for misunderstanding your claim.

I would have to ask, though, "To what end"? What would someone hope to accomplish by play-fighting with their own sock puppets to create an illusion of support?

You can't reasonably hope to change the mind of the developers from a forum like this. Maybe through writing up your own reviews of the game or joining in the chorus of complaints about the game, you can get some influence in on the game itself through Bethesda being somewhat malleable by the fanbase in response to criticisms that it receives from one game to the next.

That means you would only be trying to win an argument with yourself and maybe a few other people who are easily influenced by what the lore forum says when the lore forum has said an awful lot of things that nobody who doesn't already know enough to have an opinion of their own is going to go back and read.

To post on the Lore Forum for any reason other than enjoying butting heads over the metaphysical meanings of the lore seems like a pointless venture.



Of course us-good, them-evil division takes place, but the notion of being a part of a cosmic war of Good Versus Evil stems from Sassanid influence. As in, whether we beat this guy at our next match of Table Tennis is a matter of all God's Angels fighting with Satan's summoned Demons.

It requires a certain philosophical worldview whose meme has been passed down through that particular strain of philosophical outlook.

I know. It's a terrible and vicious cycle. Not that it's not entertaining, however. :disguise:

Edit: I'm not actually pointing fingers here, it's simply the nature of the Man/Mer debate, which infuses everyone with a particular zest. Every good and valid point someone posts needs to be followed by some mediocre to snarky comment on something or somewhat. You are right, in presence of an opposite opinion, we attempt to bolster our own opinions.

Sometimes. I'd like just to sit in a mushroom tower and spend my days summoning scamps and drinking lots of Flin.

I'm chiming in again.

@ Harald of Kynholm

That's really cynical. And I don't mean that in any philosophical sense; although, the dog man is one of my personal favourites. Stay off the onions! :teehee:

-----

A word that slapped me in the face and uttered by Destai: "Innocence". Does it exist? A Tabular Rasa could be accused of such a thing but none other.

Another conceptualisation that confuses me with regard to an infinite universe with infinite possibilities is that of "Good" and "Evil" for I wonder what weight, if any, either of those positions could carry.

It seems to me that TES's Lore is describing the standard Power struggle and that Power is the end in and of itself. But I'm still reading and still confused so forgive me for dumping my ramblings onto this forum. I'm exploring the Thalmor's attitude to Talos by role playing the game as a Thalmor protagonist and seeing how I feel about it as I play. It's interesting.

Never much of a fan. To me the Talos Cult is and always has been a den of radical religious extremists and fanatics, constantly trying to start trouble with civil wars or plots to assassinate Uriel VII.

Talos the Divine though? Also my least favorite. Again, always has been. The Daedra and Aedra are real in the universe, there's no denying that. But even back in Morrowind I always felt Talos as a God bordered too much on the "it's true because we said it was true" territory.

1. How's the Talos Cult behind the assassination of Uriel VII? That was the Mythic Dawn, a cult that worshipped Dagon.

2. Talos seems to be more 'real than the other Aedra. Wulf, the old Legion soldier in Morriwind who gives you his lucky coin, is an avatar of Talos. If you follow the logic of the Thalmor Talos is also responsible for maintaining Mundus, the physical world.

Most of MK's heroes have definite Nietzschean undertones (The Sermons are, more or less, written squarely in the style of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra"), and the same issues that some people have with Nietzsche get carried over to Lorkhan, Vehk, and Talos. These are not nice guys. They are universally power-hungry, brutal figures, who believe in reaching for a higher state of being very much in the tradition of the Ubermensch. Yet it may be argued that they are often working for the good of others, and that their actions often have mixed/positive results. They are very much "greater good", long-term benefit types.

Compare and contrast to the mainstream Empire's "everyone... play nice" ethical code, even back in Morrowind (standing in contrast to Vivec/the Tribunal). They embody the pursuit of a safe goal, but rarely one that inspires reaching or greatness in individual people.

I think they were referring to the Talos cult operating out of the Legion fort in Gnisis.

But otherwise, yeah, mythopoeia and all that. The apotheosis is maintained in part by the faith of the faithful.

I got some reasons the Thalmor hate him:

-He shamed the Altmer and subjected them to four hundred years of rule under a predominantly mannish empire.
-Eliminating Talos worship is necessary for their plan to erase man.

Yes Talos has done some questionable things, but none of the things he's antagonized for (aside conquering the Dominion, if you didn't like that) are anything the Thalmor would remotely care about. And nothing he's done can hold a candle to the atrocities and deceits that the Thalmor, who are basically fantasy Nazis, have done. Even if one does identify with their desire to undo the world, their means are utterly reprehensible.

Edit: I understand there's a stigma in associating things with Nazis on online forums, but the Thalmor fit the mold pretty well, from their underhanded tactics to their genocidal, racial supremacist views, to their penchant for looking stylish.

Im a moral nihilist myself. I dont believe good and evil exist, only cause and effect. So I would have to say Talos is neither.

I think I may be a nihilist aswell though Im not sure cause im not certain about the definition. More scary is - I symphatize with the Thalmor.... why?

As I see it we come in to life with nothing and leave it with nothing, so working towards any goal is meaningless. If the big crunch theory is true and the universe is in fact cyclic in nature, it means the universe is a prison we re-live forever. Me realizing this - i feel uhm... not that good at english... I feel trancendant from other people. Because I have come to see the universe for what it seemingly is. I dont mean that arrogantly, in fact, I perceive myself as an object rather than a person - as with all other people.

This is causing practical problems for me in life because people tend to say Im cold and tend to be immoral and such... very tiresome as I see morals as a construct and I perceive most other people in my life as those cavemen Wraith mentioned.

Not only am I a moral nihilist/nihilist, Im also a believer of hard determinism.

When I see a lawyer with a golden watch smiling with his fancy phone, and a hobo on the other side of the street - I perceive them both as equally blind, doomed and meaningless. When I hear of people dying IRL I simply dont care, because I dont believe it could go any other way, and even if free will/action was the case - their lives would still be meaningless.

The thalmor seek to end the world by making it into nothingness. But I believe that isnt possible. If life is cyclic and eternal, then as with real life big crunch - IF IT WAS POSSIBLE FOR EXISTENCE TO END WE WOULDNT EXIST. (Edit: To clarify, if the universe was infinite and the option to end it permanently existed, it would allready have happened and nothing could exist. But we exist, therefore non-existence is not possible) Worse is the concept of god/s. What cruel gods would create this existance and let people live blinded in not knowing? This may counter my view as a moral nihilist, saying this, but from a cause - effect view not knowing (Like the cavemen) is the worst of fates a sentinent life can suffer. Making me believe RL universe actually may be a punishment or error.

All in all I agree with the Thalmor, because if life is cyclic and eternal we are trapped. They seek to end this prison.

I consider the RL universe and that of the TES universe to be "The cave" because being limited with mortality and trapped in cyclicity shouldnt be.


The problem with all this is that existence is required to not want to exist, and when you dont exist - if all individuality becomes one (god?) - then if you are sentinent and all powerful- you may want to exist again, and not knowing (not being divine) therefore creating existence again. So if we exist - we want to end it, and when we end it, we want to exist again. Meaning existence is inevitable - and that the universe, is our eternal prison.

Im not suicidal or anything, because I love to experience life on my senses. But its hard having philosopated so much about it, because the closer you come to the truth - the less you want to see, but you want to know and you want the answers despite everything. My favorite quote is by David stevens; "The truth is the truth even if noone believes it, a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it". However philosophy makes me think that there is a reason life is finite and cyclic, because if you hold all the knowledge and power of everything you would clearly go mad. To be god is a scary thought. I wonder if our hunger for knowledge will consume us aswell in the end when it comes to humanity.

I think what the Thalmor is trying to achieve is just as pointless as existence. Meaning the Thalmor are no less or more evil then anyone. They just want happiness. They just want to sleep. They are sick of not knowing and if they cant have it all they dont want nothing.

Rambling done.

PS: I loved reading your posts Wraith.

Just for my clarity:

(a) First stroke of Anu and Padomay, that turbulent Grey Maybe where no spirit survived long
(b) That "godtime" after the Dragon appeared, but before Lorkhan's Gray Mundus.

Thread suggests the Thalmor desire Line A, right? And by mention, the dwemer too? I thought the elven view and Thalmor goal was Line B. However, the Thalmor are out-of-the-norm for elves, I suppose. And I wasn't reading clearly enough, apparently, if their goal is to stop the cosmic cycle entirely.





Funny enough, everyone found Boethiah's Summoning Day very charming. At least I did.

-----
Lorkhan is like the ending to every Men in Black film. We're thinking too small.

I just have to say that I really hate that they call him Talos and not Ysmir since that is his nordic name after all. I'm betting Bethesda called him Talos for the game because it sounded cooler to all the kids who bought TESV on consoles. Lots of changes and retrograde-continuity to TES has to do with marketing and what will appeal to their audience the most; not so much what is the best lore they can write. (Boy, I sure did go off on a tangent)

Lolwut, Bretons adn Redguards like existing.

The only people who wanted to go back all the subgradients were the Dwemer, who failed, and a select group of Altmer known as the Thalmor.

EDIT: @Judas the Betrayer, uhh the Big Brunch isnt tue you know right. No need to be so... yeah.

Looks like somebody's taking the guys on the History Channel a little too seriously.

Now, logical absurdities and irrelevancies in your post aside, even if we should cede that working toward any goal irl is meaningless, how does that in even the slightst degree pertain to the world of TES?

However, remember that the Tribunal seemed to be more helpful for "normal" people. Even Mara's cult doesn't help the poor, which an ex-Tribunal priest of Mara in Bravil laments.

The two cents of a guy making his first post on here:

One of the things I absolutely love about TES Lore, as I delve deeper and deeper into it from threads on a vidya board to hours spent reading through UESP and the Imperial Library, is how so very multifaceted everything is. Philosophical debates aside, I really appreciate the fact that the way something is initially presented in TES isn't necessarily even close to the truth; Talos and the many incarnations and interpretations of him as a prime example.

My thoughts on the Hero/Villain discussion in the original post come down to that same idea which draws me into TES - perspective. You really can draw a different answer depending on where you're attempting to answer it from. The perspective of your character in the game and the innumerable incarnations possible? Your actual in person perspective? They can be as similar or different as you can imagine given the backgrounds and experiences of each. It comes back to what I love about the Lore as far as I have seen it - it comes to interpretation and there isn't truly a correct answer. Right?

As an aside, a question I've seen asked before but am curious to see answered: Why don't the Thalmor and people of their ilk take issue with Arkay? Wasn't he also a mortal who rose past his given station?

One question (keep in mind I haven't played Skyrim yet):

As far as I understood, unraveling the time dragon does not mean stasis. It just sets time free from linear flow. This seems to mean that a split second or a millenium can pass at will. I cannot even imagine what flowing sideways is supposed to mean . Daedra already existed at this stage, and they did things, didn't they? It looks like a weird mix of chaos and stasis to me, all at once. If that makes sense?

The difference is in timing, plus Arkay was never what one might rightly call a mortal, much less a man. Arkay existed before the world began, he just had no purpose and was a very minor entity. Once the world was created he had a purpose, a very important one, and so took one of the top eight slots amongst the gods.

Talos on the other hand doesn't have this pre-existence going for him, plus he was a man. Chances are the Thalmor would have been perfeclty ok if Talos had been an Altmer.

Unless he took Lorkhan's role like Tiber did, in which case they'd hate him just as much. The Thalmor hate Talos because he needs to be removed from the mythic, and IMO that whole "he was just a man!" is there for two reasons

1) So the Empire won't know what they really want

2) It's probably easier for your average Altmer commoner to understand.

I would imagine the vast majority of Thalmor, even the justicars, truly believe that Talos is simply a blasphemy, and are solely acting out the motivations they relate to you ingame.

The whole remove Talos scheme for ending the world we gather from secondary sources. Chances are if this is even a conscious goal on the part of the Thalmor it's only the higher-ups in Alinor who know the true goal of removing Talos.

That is, I don't think 90% of Thalmor know what they "really want."

I was just trying to make a real life comparison to try understand the Thalmor better on a psychological level. My conclusion being, among all my ramblings, that we have no right to judge them good or evil. I dont say that based on my morally nihilistic view but because if the word indeed is cyclical in TES, and it goes on forever, that is pretty much hell. Imagine waking up each day, with zero knowledge - and attain knowledge through the day and learn who you are - only to forget everything each time you fall asleep. That is as hellish as it must be to be reborn over and over. The Thalmor - if I understand correctly, just want this to end? They dont want to be tortured by mortality any longer?

@Mouse: Taken from wikipedia.

Recent experimental evidence (namely the observation of distant supernova as standard candles, and the well-resolved mapping of the cosmic microwave background) has led to speculation that the expansion of the universe is not being slowed down by gravity but rather accelerating. However, since the nature of the dark energy that is postulated to drive the acceleration is unknown, it is still possible (though not observationally supported as of today) that it might eventually reverse sign and cause a collapse.[3] Dark energy is, however, still a speculative theory.

I take it as obvious that the universe would expand faster and faster, then for it to slow down more and more until it all withdraws back to one spot to be restarted. Just because we are currently at the spot where it expands at an increasing rate does not mean in any way that the big crunch isnt true. Just because a bunch of physicists says its unlikely doesent change wheter or not it will actually happen if it is indeed possible. When you consider the enormity of space, and the size of our planet, the limits of our senses and technology - one doesent need to be that smart to realize how WRONG our theories may be. Basicly you are saying that "With our limited view of the whole scope of the universe, and our limited time alive in it, resources, technology and knowledge. We can be safe to assume its true that the big crunch isnt possible because a bunch of old men says so"? Dont get me wrong, Im not saying the big crunch theory is true ofcourse. Im just stating that there is no way we can possible know with the tools currently at our hands.

Is it really hellish if you indeed forget? Besides, it's not that the Thalmor want the cycle to end for the sake of ending some meta-universal cycle, they want to end everything so they can return to what they believe to have been pseudo-divine pre-existence. As far as I know, anyways.




I love this. What are the odds of DLC expansions/TES VI being focused on Summerset/Valenwood and dealing with the Thalmor one way or another while learning more about them? Not to mention delving into the Altmer and Bosmer societies and lore.

Except the cyclic nature isn't a necessity, it doesn't have to happen.

My suggestion, read a science book instead of Wikipedia.