The Thalmor have a philosophy that is most certainly not Existentialist, and is probably best likened to Gnosticism.

Philosophy is really the underpinnings of all other knowledge, as philosophy is, to generalize it to its most basic form, the way in which you try to understand anything that happens in the world around you. Our entire understanding of such a thing existing called "science", for example, (in the Western tradition) is thanks to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phusis, which were the first people who thought that trying to understand the patterns of how nature actually works would give you insight into understanding how nature will work again in the future, instead of just assuming that every rain storm was just an inexplicable act of the gods, or that all natural disasters were the wrath of the heavens, for which we must give sacrifices to the gods to appease them. Without taking the time to stop and think that reality can be understood, it is impossible to make much progress in understanding it.

The Thalmor have a completely alien philosophy - whereas an Existentialist sees growth and learning and self-determination as ultimately good, and where even pain and suffering grant meaning to existence, and as such, are valuable for making you a stronger person for having overcome adversity, the Thalmor have a belief where time and existence and mortality are corruptions of their original pre-creation point.

I would point you back to this post I made earlier in the thread: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1296865-talos-hero-or-villain/page__view__findpost__p__19576513

Sorry if it's a little tl;dr, but it's basically the Cliff's Notes version of the first two weeks of a Western Philosophy 101 course just as an intro into discussing the divergent path of philosophy that the Thalmor seem most connected to.

I disagree with saying that the Thalmor are aiming for "non-existence." It isn't a fitting way to describe their very ambitious cause. For all we know, the Thalmor will exist in more ways than one if they succede.

This. It's not non-existence that they're after, it's just escape from mortal, mundane existence. Not at all nihilistic. More transcendent than anything, I think.

A group that sought non-existence of the sort that Wraith_Magus is calling nihilistic (if I understand properly, which is always an uncertain proposition at best) in Mundus wouldn't seek a return to a state of pre-creation, they'd seek to "kill" the godhead, no?
Although "a group of nihilists", especially ones with a goal? How odd. :whistling:

They're just transcending backwards, is all. Silly elves, with their shoes on the wrong foot and everything.

While it's fine that you disagree and all, (I'll just disagree right back,) would you mind giving a better explanation about why you disagree?

How is seeking a status of pre-creation and stopping creation from happening again not nihilistic? How is forcing themselves to... what's the opposite of transcend? Descend? Unscend? Anyway, make themselves lower than creation somehow "more transcendent" or "ambitious"? I actually more agree with MinotaurWarrior's assessment that their ultimate goal is nothing more than the comfort of climbing back into the womb so that they need not worry about existing anymore.

Sounds rather like the behavior (fictional?) of King David (IRL). Well, without all the binding souls to dwemer automatons/golems.

MW hit the nail on the head, but that's not nihilism with reference to the TES universe. Pre-creation is still a form of existence; it's merely a purely spiritual/magical existence, rather than the fleshy sort. And most importantly, it isn't "without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value", to borrow wikipedia's definition of existential nihilism. The Thalmor *certainly* find meaning and value in it (or hope to do so, rather), which is why they're striving so hard to attain it.

They want a different existence, and one that their ideology finds even more meaningful and worthwhile than Mundus. I suppose they're nihilists with regards to that very Mundus, but on the grander cosmological scale their goal is not a nihilistic one. True nihilists in TES might be more of a Sithis cult, seeking the abrogation of all but the Void. Or not, because if they're nihilists they can't be bothered to try since it doesn't matter either way.

Why worship any of the 9 they svck as except debela. I worship daedra lord azura other daeadra is cool to at least you know what get when worship daedra.

I enjoy reading and read again the post(s) to which you refer.

The Thalmor's belief, regardless of any moral judgement, does, at least to myself, appear to be consistent? If the Thalmor see Lorkhan's deceit as a corruption of their original perfect form then they would also see Lorkhan's assertion that in Mundus one can grow beyond the perfect, from which they derive, as both an untruth and an imposition worthy of circumventing. Is it not the case that the Thalmor merely seek a shortcut to return to that perfection? After all, even if the Mundus allows for growth it cannot allow for growth beyond perfection as that would contradict any concept of perfection.

So from the Thalmor perspective: Talos is an agent of the corrupter and must be destroyed, and Lorkhan is the puppeteer casting shadows on the cave wall.

So...

How did someone like that become a God?

Maybe all Humans are idiots? I would not worship something that evil.. May as well worship Mehrunes Dagon.

I suppose you mean Cuhlecain. It is very possible that Cuhlecain was incompetent, only reason he had victory after victory was Tiber Septim who would save the day from
Cuhlecain′s stupid strategies. So the problem was solved and Tiber Septim was the one who got crowned.

There, now he doesn't seem that evil, right?

By mantling the struggle between Akatosh and Lorkhan. Great leader do what they have to, and if it wasn't for the actions of Tiber Septim then things very well could have just gone on in a violent death roll like always. The end justifies the means, in this case the death his buddies for the creation of an Empire that would save millions in the future and offer stability and (overall) peace for the entire continent.

Find me a pure ruler, and I'll show you where you can find the Eye of Argonia with detailed maps.

I'm a Nord so for me he is a Hero, he is my God and i serve him, all hail Talos !

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2778/4446394426_0ce6dbebe4.jpg

Now, about those maps..

I'm kinda anti-Talos now that I know a little bit of the lore. Reason being that Talos is binding the Aedra and Daedra to Nirn, and preventing the next kalpa from coming. At least that is how I understand it to be.

You must be a Leaper if you think that's a good thing. It will mean the end of all in the world.




Ah I was wondering when I'd see you again Aristotle.

Very close - The Thalmor are not seeking a "shortcut" back to the pre-creation they desire, they are trying to not only destroy this kalpa (world), but prevent any other kalpa from ever forming again.

Mankind actually makes kalpas more likely, and Talos, as a human-god makes it especially more likely that a new kalpa will form, and are integral parts of Lorkhan/Shor's plans to create the "evolving kalpas".

In essence, humanity, by their very existence, is on Lorkhan's side, and as such, the Thalmor must destroy not just all of humanity, but also the very possibility that humanity exists or will exist again (meaning they're going to have to Dragon Break humanity out of the picture entirely), and this includes Talos, not because of what Talos is doing specifically, but because Talos is human, and a human god is a concept that they have to destroy utterly because being a god makes his "possibility to exist" extremely threatening to the Thalmor's plans.

Other than that, everything is correct, to the best of my grip on the lore.



Actually, he's what ensures that the next kalpa will come, as far as I can tell. The Thalmor have to eliminate the possibility of Talos existing before this kalpa ends, or he ensures the next kalpa's coming, which ruins all their plans. That is why the Thalmor are desperate to eliminate him, so that they can eliminate the possibility of humanity existing.

Looks like someone is trying to create their own Socratic dialogues.

Gotta say this is why I love the lore forum. Nice discussions I will definately check back on this thread.

What is better? Stasis or Chaos? Stunted Immortality or Mortal Versatility? Anuiel/Sithis, Akatosh/Lorkhan, Mer/Man.

They're all myth echoes of the first split in the universe.

Personally I think the Altmer are deluded. They think that returning to a state of immortality is a step forward when it's just a step backward. Nirn was created as a launchpad for something greater than simple, caged immortality.

Plus no one kicks ass like Shor.

I've never agreed with the Thalmor, but tried to understand them. I agree with the Tribunal above most things. Nirn is the launchpad towards greater things indeed, but only for a select few.

Unless banolity is your preferred version of divinity.

Neither.

They have value only for their interplay, not because one is intrinsically good or the other is intrinsically evil.

When you have a cult that values only "Stasis" (or whatever version of the Anu side of the coin you want to call it), you have the Thalmor. When you have a cult that values only "Chaos" (or whatever version of the Padomay side of the coin you want to call it), you have the Dark Brotherhood. Neither one of which has particularly admirable ideals, at least by my own judgment.

The notion that one side is Pure Good and another side is Pure Evil is the unfortunate fallout of a Sassanid version of Zoroastrianism's influence on early Christianity that has percolated through Western Philosophy ever since. It was basically created as a means of mobilizing the fragments of the Persian Empire into waging "Holy War" against their enemy, the Roman Empire, by describing everything their country did as being a part of the side of "perfect good", and everything the Romans did as being on the side of "pure evil", and that therefore, any form of barbarity or evil perpetuated on their enemies was ultimately "for the greater good" because, by definition, anything that hurts that other side must be good. It is a tool for building a culture that commits itself to unending religious warfare.

TES lore is much easier to understand when you abandon the notion that one side must be inherently good and the other must be inherently evil. It is better to view the actions of Lorkhan through an Existentialist (possibly even Nietzschian) lens if you seek to understand what he or his Shezzarine psuedo-agents seek to achieve. Likewise, you have to understand something of the Gnostic mindset to understand what the Thalmor are trying to achieve or what the Dwemer did.

If this were the case, the leading posters of each side would actually be sockpuppets of some master string-puller whose own personal views are never directly shared, or else the argument would take place in the form of a type of play where the poster had multiple arguing characters discussing different aspects of their views on lore without the actual poster directly sharing their belief on anything.

Socratic Dialogues are a very specific genre of literature that is nearly impossible to pull off well. To merely have a dialogue about Socrates is not to have a Socratic Dialogue.



To try to understand is admirable, however, just because one tries to understand does not mean one cannot still virulently disagree, and make that disagreement clear.

I would only state that in rather Nietzschian fashion, the select few are meant to be the pioneers that pave the way for others to follow. The Tribunal, notably, took power for themselves, demanded worship of themselves, and in return would share some of their benefits with others for that worship. The Shezzarine ascension of mortals, at least, has a pseudo-meritocratic opening for new mortals to become gods. If applied over a great enough span of kalpa, who knows what could become of it? Perhaps mortal gods may find the way to transcend the Godhead through ascending enough mortals in ways that Vivec alone could not achieve.

He's not an et'Ada, therefore he's not a god. He is a great hero, sure, but not a god. That being said, Talos worshippers are not in the business of limiting what others believe, and I believe in religious freedom. The Thalmor however have earned my ire for slaughtering innocence for a belief; when I see them, I greet them with fire.