Dagon's expulsion and the reestablished barriers "should not be seen as the suave conquest of Cyrodiil's agencies, for we have been tricked again by the Dagonites" or other powers.

What if Talos was Dagon's target, and Martin's knee jerk action, to use the Emperors' Oversoul as a weapon, actually breaking the accordance between Lorkhan and Akatosh, severing Talos' heads; a convention which, may I remind you, was engineered by Alessia, so she could prolong the dominion of the mortals and Mundus? I smell Alinor.

Thoughts?

I can see where you're coming from, but I think that unless the Dragon statue is destroyed (a distinct possibility at this point) things might not be going in that direction.

Alternatively we and the people of Tamriel have been tricked by the Dagonites into thinking Dagon was trying to invade at all. It may be that by sealing himself away from Mundus permanently by manipulating Martin into making a more permanent barrier was the plan all along, and that means he can't break Mundus down to edible size so it can be just another devoured kalpa. "Tricked" and "saved" might be going hand in hand.

which means if Umbriel lands on the Imperial City Mundus is pretty badly screwed.

I don't quite understand. What is the accordance between Lorkhan and Akatosh and how would it be broken?

why would the population Of Rumare turning into zombie-slaves affect the ban Aka made on Daedra? Even if they crushed the statue to the ground, nothing would happen.

The line you quoted is about the Nerevarine's actions at Red Mountain being orchestrated by Dagonites, allowing the invasion which occured in Oblivion.

Here's the passage in full:

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta_nu-mantia.shtml#3

Surely you read too much into the statue. The statue is cold and dead like the Septims. Martin broke the Amulet of Kings, which is the treaty between Akatosh and Lorkhan with Mundus. Alessia was the mother of Mundus, one who could manipulate these destructive forces and maintain an Empire for her progeny. Talos is the reenforcing oversoul, the Enantiomorph:



I say Talos died when Martin brashley broke the Amulet. Alessia used the stone to bind Akatosh and Lorkhan for a period of stability and existance without the two continuing their cycle of end and begining. This was the Third Empire, with all its faults and failures. With the Empire gone, so goes Talos.

While the Septim Empire is over, Cyrodiil has recovered from it much more quickly than when the Reman and Alessian Empires fell, and it appears that it was Martin's sacrifice that made this possible.

In fact, the Oblivion Crisis itself may have spared Cyrodiil from going the way of the Reman Empire, as it brought the nation together just as they lost the last of the Septims.

Surely you read too much into the statue. The statue is cold and dead like the Septims. This is not the covenant between Akatosh and Lorkhan with Alessia, but its end.

Alessia, as the myth-echo of Mundus, manipulated Akatosh and Lorkhan with a covenant agreement, to maintain a stable world for her progeny. That covenent was the Amulet of Kings, and its purpose was to prepare a space in the mythic for Talos, by myth-echoing the convention and the space left with Lorkhan's death.

That is why the Amulet's Tower was the hub of a wheel, to model how the Enantiomorph cements the Mundus. The Many Headed Talos, being the Enantiomorph, was also the hub that held the two together. Again, this was the purpose and missing space left for him. However, with the Amulet broken, Talos is likewise broken, and the center which cannot hold is undone.


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Cyrodiil is saved? Tell me, was Vvardenfell saved? The Tower was destroyed through subterfuge and provocation, and you don't admit it. I suppose a giant city needs to fall on top of White-Gold before more see Talos is dead.

The Nine FAILED! YOUR GODS FAILED!! Matin was had, like the rest of you.

[sorry for jumping in and out of character guys]

You really hate Talos don't you.

I'm only raising awareness among the good people of Tamriel their goose is cooked and mostly bone.

Two things:
1. We know Morrowind's ending wasn't so clear cut, thanks to Nu-Hatta. It is only right we expect hidden agendas underlying Oblivion's.
2. Killing Talos is part of the begining plan to escape the "material prison."

Also, Alinor and the Mythic Dawn have strangely similar objectives. Strange? You be the judge.

I'm pretty sure the Dragon statue in the Temple of the One is supposed to represent the Covenant between Akatosh and mankind now. After his battle with Dagon, Akatosh could have simply disappeared in a burst of light like Dagon did. I believe he concentrated the energy of his dying physical form to renew the Covenant. That thing has real power..it even bestows a power upon the player character when touched, like a shrine would.

It was inevitable that something bad would happen, ever since the War of the First Council. If the Tribunal had not broken their vow to Nerevar, perhaps Landfall would have never happened, but nobody would have been able to stop Dagoth Ur, especially if Numidium was never relocated. Later on, had Red Tower not been deactivated, Dagoth Ur and his Second Numidium would have defeated Vivec and thus brought about an unstoppable invasion force AND Landfall. Had Martin not stopped Mehrunes Dagon and his immortal, technologically superior armies, all of Tamriel might have been screwed.

The Fall of Red Tower was brought about by Azura and Vivec, the Dagonites were just the catalyst for something that was a long time coming.

Talos may be gone, but Titus Mede has risen to take his place, just like Talos and Reman Cyrodiil before him. The Aldmer better hope that the Cyrodiils don't get the Bruma Siege Crawler up and running.

Talos did think it was a good thing, though. The change of regime, that is. If anyone's in a position to see the big picture, it's him. Eh, maybe.

That thing has real power, because you want to believe it does. All I see is dead stone where Martin broke the Amulet, released the oversoul to patch the barrier, and killed Talos in the process. The Nine performed no miracle, as the propagandists would have us believe. Akatosh did nothing, but rather was released from any obligation to preserve the Empire: Mundus. The sign was wrongly interpreted and it is http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/aldudagga.shtml instead.
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zomgthe stars arefixed!

Interesting idea. I suppose we will need to wait for TES5 or the second book to really see how strongly the breaking of the covenant affected the land, but I for one would not mind if Umbriel crashed into Cyrodiil City

then again, "what is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger" (excuse the inter-universe quoting). After all, Lorkhan(Talos) was "killed" when his heart was severed, and has been gaining back parts of himself throughout the game. I suppose the death of the avatar of Talos could be another step to the rebirth of Lorkhan.

Yes, TESV for certain, but I'd like to believe it's a certainty Vuhon will toppel White-Gold. Cataclysm followed Vvardenfell/Red Mountain and the destruction of Anumidium in Dagoth's factory, after its missuse by lesser men in the Illiac. The pattern has been the undermining of the Towers through proxy agencies, then, years later, the Towers fall. I think it's Alinor, and the natural tendancy of men to kill each other, but we'll see...

[thanks for playing along folks]

Vuhon gives no indication that White-Gold will toppel, or even that he will land on it (though that seems to be the common assumption). He just says that once he reaches White-Gold that the city will be free to land, he even makes it sound like its going to land on Tamriel. Destroying a tower and upsetting the sturdyness of Tamriel sounds counterproductive to what he says he's doing.

I'm not linking Vuhon to the destruction of the Tower, I believe Martin did that.
(Let me rephrase again, the actual, functioning Tower was lost thanks to Martin. The useless, Stoneless husk which is left will likely collapse, either by Umbriel or something else.)

Instead, I believe the physical devastation will follow White-Gold, and a possible candidate is Umbriel. You're right it's too early to know. Just as Vvardenfell was physically destroyed, years after the events in its crater set the stone free, I'm saying something similar could happen to the Imperial Palace.

I don't think the deactivation of Red Tower was the direct cause of Vvardenfell's fate. That Red Mountain was a very powerful volcano and that the Ministry of Truth was a suspended meteor were the direct causes.

the heart may not have directly caused the moon to crash to the ground, but it started the chain of events that did. similarly, the breaking of the amulet may be the first step in rebirth-through-death of cyrodiil (already happening due the the invasion)

For Talos to truly 'die', it'd have to be a death acknowledged by all, but at the end of Oblivion everyone's beleif in Talos is reignited by Martin's sacrifice. A god can't be dead if people still beleive they live, especially if more beleive Talos is real/alive than what there was before. Beleif means power and meta-physical realisation of such beleif in TES, and as such Talos cannot be dead.

What you describe is Talos the craven image. So, if what supports a god is debased, in your example belief, then he is in his death throes. We both agree on that point; but what if Talos and the Empire are intrinsic to one another? When the dragon dies, the Empire dies That was the case jackfrost made.