In Tamriel, are there any scientists, mathematicians etc...

Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:53 am

With the mild exception of alchemists, I did not really notice any kind of 'scientists' (in our meaning), could someone pllease shed light upon whether or not there are?
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Alessandra Botham
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:47 pm

I imagine that Tamriel has "natural philosophers" rather than "scientists," a distinction that is purely semantic. Some people argue that the natural philosophers of medieval Europe didn't experiment or have a rigorous scientific method. The latter has some weight to it (although several people from this period were instrumental in developing the modern scientific method), and it may be true that there was more emphasis put on abstract thought than visceral experimentation - but there was still plenty of experimentation going on.
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Queen Bitch
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:48 pm

I imagine that Tamriel has "natural philosophers" rather than "scientists," a distinction that is purely semantic. Some people argue that the natural philosophers of medieval Europe didn't experiment or have a rigorous scientific method. The latter has some weight to it (although several people from this period were instrumental in developing the modern scientific method), and it may be true that there was more emphasis put on abstract thought than visceral experimentation - but there was still plenty of experimentation going on.


That is true, mainly do to the fact they could not disagree with the church. In Europue, however, in the Arabic world there were some influential scientists. In Europe, they actually believed doing science, philosophy etc... made one closer to God (because they would learn how he/she/it designed our universe. Anyway, in any of the elder scrolls games does one ever encounter some sort of a philosopher or scientist character?
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Mel E
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:07 pm

There was that mage in oblivion that had made the residents of Aleswell invisible.
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sunny lovett
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:21 pm

There was that mage in oblivion that had made the residents of Aleswell invisible.



Or the one that was studying the naturally occurring welkynd stones in that cave, can't seem to remember the name though.

Found it: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:No_Stone_Unturned
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lolly13
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:22 am

Quite, the Telvanni and Psijics were both doing extensive experiments, as well as (to a lesser extent) the Arcane University, and even Necromancers. Most mages are technically experimenting and researching the physical world, they are simply using magicka as opposed to what we would call science. Technically, since magic is a part of the physical world there, they are still studying the world around them :P "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
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Darren Chandler
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:42 pm

Well, in Tamriel, there doesn't seem to be much research going on in what we would call science in real life, likely because of the fact that the world itself doesn't have the same workings as real life. But considering the nature of the Elder Scrolls world, I might argue that someone who studies magic or alchemy or weird metaphysical things, in the context of the setting, is really not all that different from someone who studies biology or physics in real life, and there are certainly people who do research on such subjects. The knowledge available to people in Tamriel of their own world has to come from somewhere, after all. And I'm sure that some of the people in say, the Mages Guild who research various subjects regard their research in a similar way to how a scientist in real life might regard his work.

If what scientists do is perform research in order to better understand how various things in the world work, then in the context of a setting where magic is as much a part of the universe as weather, is someone who studies magic really any less of a scientist than someone who studies chemistry or astronomy would be in real life? Obviously, to us, magic is not science, but that's because magic is a fictional element that is removed from real world science. But if we consider, for the sake of argument, that there was, in fact, a world where magic was very much real and plays a role in shaping said world, and was researched by people, often through hypothesis and experimentation, much like real scientists, would the people who research it not look at it as another form of science? Now, the narrative probably wouldn't call it science, because calling someone who uses powers that are clearly magic would probably seem weird to most audiences, but technically speaking, I don't think there's really much of a difference in the Elder Scrolls world.
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Amanda Leis
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:59 am

Of course they are, lot of them.
The science of Nirn can't ignore the magical nature of the world, which has great influence on science and shapes it different from our world. But the science are certainly exists.

It is natural sciences mostly, though. Astronomy, geography, biology, herbology, daedralogy, paleonumerology...
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naomi
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:02 am

Thank all of you for your replies & your insights. I was thinking that perhaps the mages and necromancers were like the scientists of Nirn.
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Shirley BEltran
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:32 am

Of all the other ancient civilizations, 'twas the greeks who believed there were laws and order in nature that made it predictable. If you ever get the chance to what What the Ancients Knew - The Greeks, I highly recommend it. There are some videos up http://science.discovery.com/videos/what-the-ancients-knew-thales-the-first-scientist.html.

What I'm trying to get at is that it is unusual for a civilization to develop observation-based sciences. We take it for granted, as a "d'uh" part of life.

Evidently, however, most of the races of Nirn must be aware of mathematics and geometry on some level in order to construct their architecture in such a sturdy fashion. :shrug:

Other practical applications of science and math are missing - probably a dev oversight, what with the lack of supporting manufacturing infrastructure (masons, lumber, mining, water distribution and extraction, etc) in any of the games.
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-__^
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:54 am

Of all the other ancient civilizations, 'twas the greeks who believed there were laws and order in nature that made it predictable. If you ever get the chance to what What the Ancients Knew - The Greeks, I highly recommend it. There are some videos up http://science.discovery.com/videos/what-the-ancients-knew-thales-the-first-scientist.html.

What I'm trying to get at is that it is unusual for a civilization to develop observation-based sciences. We take it for granted, as a "d'uh" part of life.

Evidently, however, most of the races of Nirn must be aware of mathematics and geometry on some level in order to construct their architecture in such a sturdy fashion. :shrug:

Other practical applications of science and math are missing - probably a dev oversight, what with the lack of supporting manufacturing infrastructure (masons, lumber, mining, water distribution and extraction, etc) in any of the games.


Thanks for the link (I feel stupid that I have mispronounced Thales for a while).

Moreover, does the magic almost 'take place' of what we explain scientifically in Nirn?
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Charlotte Lloyd-Jones
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:06 am

Thanks for the link (I feel stupid that I have mispronounced Thales for a while).

Moreover, does the magic almost 'take place' of what we explain scientifically in Nirn?

I like to think that magic in the TES universe behaves consistently enough so that it could be described with theories. Like many things in TES - including time itself - many "rules" seem to be broken. But that could simply mean a lack of complete understanding - if we knew more about the mechanics, we could devise a new theory that would better be able to predict the outcomes and behavior of paranormal/magic events. Still, there is a very real possibility that some things in the TES universe won't behave in a predictable manner.

So, what I'm trying to say is, I think magic is just another type of phenomenon. Biology is the study of life, Chemistry the study of atoms and molecules and their reactions and stuff. Physics studies the "physical" laws of our universe, along with Quantum physics and whatnot. Science isn't a thing, it is an inquiry that studies the world around us. In the TES Universe, "magic" is part of the universe and its mechanics. But, just because it is there doesn't oblige mortals to try to approach understanding it in a scientific manner. I could take a stick and use it as a measuring device and try to make straight lines for my building. I can build a house without geometry. Likewise, they can use magic without understanding or needing to know the nitty-gritty behind it.
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Genevieve
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:40 pm

Since Clarke has already been quoted, think of magic as the things we'd like to be able to do but haven't found out how yet. The people of Nirn have found a different set of capabilities with their sciences than we have, so our magic is their advanced technology, and vice versa. After all, many scientific breakthroughs are accidental, so it's likely that different civilizations would have discovered different parts of reality, especially if some of the rules we consider universal are in fact local anomalies.

Mathematics may be an exception, as it can consider "unreal" situations and determine the consequences of those (e.g non-Euclidean geometries) and therefore is not dependent on physical experiment, but most other Sciences are based on observing events, attempting to explain them, and testing the explanation with experiments that prove or disprove them. Nirn's events are different from ours, so the scientists would be observing Deadric summoning, examining what's going on, testing theories, and summoning things of their own, whether they be creatures, fireballs, or whatever. They'd have a technology based on that for other things, so Alchemists would use summoned ingredients, hit them with shock spells, and come up with different results from a chemist in a lab on Earth who wouldn't have access to those.
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Heather M
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:12 pm

^ I'd argue that mathematics is a language to describe natural phenomena. There are such things as mathematical theories - if the results don't support the hypothesis, then the equations aren't a proper description of the phenomena. I bet much of math started out with practical applications.

It's just theoretical math (much like theoretical anything) that is all fuzzy useless thinking with no application [/generalization]
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Setal Vara
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:55 am

The Dwemer were an extremely scientific race.

Other then that, all the mages in the elderscrolls game study the natural world, and I am sure they would look into things similar to biology, astronomy, physics, geology and psychology.
But of course, with the amazing powers of magic on the personal level, I'm sure there primary focus is there.

And as far as mathematicians are concerned, I think there existence can be assumed considering some of the architectural achievements of Tamerial. They just aren't really in the games cause they wouldn't serve the player's goals very much.

Dyus in the library of order was very similar to a mathematician and scientist in that he was able to calculate the natural progression of events through logic.
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Yvonne Gruening
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:43 pm

For the mathematics, that numeratus mystics from Vehk's teaching are very similar to pythagoric, cabbalistic, and other numerologic systems, which were close connected to mathematics in our world.
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sophie
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:49 am

Divayth Fyr most surely. He was more than the sorcerer that they say about him, and talking to him shows how much more he is into the scientific aspects of what he does, aside from the selfish (wink).

Mistress Dratha is another one, though I think this might have been a mod added aspect. With her Operation Corprus Wield, she is clearly an advanced scientist.
Sotha Sil, perhaps but arguably.

Other mod added ones might be:

Nathaniel Pearl - Pearl Palace.
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Tarka
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:27 pm

Divayth Fyr most surely. He was more than the sorcerer that they say about him, and talking to him shows how much more he is into the scientific aspects of what he does, aside from the selfish (wink).

Mistress Dratha is another one, though I think this might have been a mod added aspect. With her Operation Corprus Wield, she is clearly an advanced scientist.
Sotha Sil, perhaps but arguably.

Other mod added ones might be:

Nathaniel Pearl - Pearl Palace.

Corpus Wield? Pearl Palace? MOD! All Dratha ever did was be a sixist annoyance.
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michael flanigan
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:51 pm

The dunmer lady who studies the flora and fauna in SI
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Cheryl Rice
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:15 am

Henantier is a Tamrielic scientist because magic is science in Tamriel, a usable and quantifiable fact. The Horror of Castle Xyr shows a mad scientist at work, and we are left to assume that a lot of time in the Mage's Guild (now the College of Whisper and the Synod, which rediscovered Levitation spells) is spent experimenting with new spell effects and potions.
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sharon
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:31 pm

The dunmer lady who studies the flora and fauna in SI

That doesn't make her a scientist. Pliny the Elder recorded flora and fauna, but it was hardly 100% scientific...
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Milagros Osorio
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:16 pm

The Dwemer Fall under that categorie, Unfortunately there now gone.
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Louise Andrew
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:20 am

they use money and have taxmen. so they definitely use math. just because no one put them in does not mean no one has it. i'm sure most of the nobles have men to handle math. one shiny purpose and two sets of books. as a matter of fact in morrowind the east empire company had more than one crooked ledger.
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bonita mathews
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:55 pm

Mathematicians? Ha. There are paleonumerologists in the Sumerset Isles who can count to sixteen infinities using number systems true only in a previous kalpa.

Scientists? Ho-ho, I laugh at your scientists. There is little of Nirni to grasp that does not require peeling back its surface and peering into the dark-that-was before the Convention.

For what is the record of petty phenomena in the face of raging totem-gods, meme-eating immortal vampire snakemen, and myths that shape the world?
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Emmi Coolahan
 
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Post » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:30 pm

Mathematicians? Ha. There are paleonumerologists in the Sumerset Isles who can count to sixteen infinities using number systems true only in a previous kalpa.

Scientists? Ho-ho, I laugh at your scientists. There is little of Nirni to grasp that does not require peeling back its surface and peering into the dark-that-was before the Convention.

For what is the record of petty phenomena in the face of raging totem-gods, meme-eating immortal vampire snakemen, and myths that shape the world?


None is your answer. No record that maps easily, that is. And no map that could do it justice here in the Tamriel, for it would be an incomplete map, which is to say, look elsewhere for accommodations.
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Horror- Puppe
 
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