During working and ingame testing on the Tamriel heightmap and TWMP_Summerset, I noticed that when Obse mods like Window Lighting System (AWLS), Map Marker Overhaul and Oblivion XP are used, the space of the tamriel ws that can be used ingame, is limited somehow to 8 x 8 quads ...if you try to go further than cell 130 / -130 in any direction (N,S,W,E) the game freezes immediately...

as these mods do not edit the landscape or regions etc etc it seems to be a problem with obse ....

I have tried a complete new clean OB install...a new obse install, tested with old save games, a complete new char, with and without wrye bash, any load order etc etc etc...

any help of the local obse experts would be more than welcome.... :brokencomputer:

cheers

Edit...Weather all Natural works fine though...

It is more likely something in one of those mods. Of course, since you're using a much bigger map than normal, Map Marker Overhaul is a relatively natural candidate for consideration. MMO doesn't bother with map size in any way, except if you have the feature that prevents the map from opening auto-centered on the player. If this is enabled, MMO writes the correct coordinates into the map xml. It uses floats to store those values, so the size shouldn't be a problem for MMO in itself, but maybe Oblivion doesn't handle that large values being set into the xml.

Just a wild guess, but you could try disabling that feaure if you have it enabled (set tnoMMO.hideMapPosition to 0).

Edit: If it happens while moving around, and not when you open the map, the cause is something else....

hmmm...MMO as well as AWLS and Oblivion XP are working perfectly...but as soon as you try to go further west than cell -130 (ingame) for example the game freezes....

as it is a perfect 8 x 8 quads square where these mods work my guess is that there is maybe some obse setting for this somewhere ????

Mhm... If you try those 3 mods independently (meaning just one of these is active), does this happen?

yep... it happens if one of these 3 mods is active....and exactly the same way..everything works fine ..but as soon as you go to far, the game freezes....as said before it is exactly the same distance in all directions (N,S,W,E) ...if you start from cell 0,0 130 cells ...or in other words 4 quads....

Weather all Natural, Storms and Sound, Ayleid Steps and Thieves Arsenal work fine though

What happens if you cow to a cell outside the 8 x 8 quad?

And the same but with the troublesome mods not active, then save and activate?

And, lastly, does the problem persist with only OBSE loaded?

AWLS ESP contains only two records, and only one is a script. Take the Basic ESP and break the script apart, removing sections until the game stops crashing.

it seems that these 3 mods are using the tamriel ws as a reference in some way (obse commands ?). As they use the original tamriel ws, only 8x8 quads are recognized, which is exactly the tamriel ws (landmass plus lod land)...leaving these quads (ws) breaks the scripts ( missing references ?) and freezes the game....for testing I made the AWLS esp dependent on the tamriel heightmap...and it worked perfect....

:brokencomputer: :brokencomputer: :brokencomputer:


suggestions welcome


Edit : this means the nice one is right, this seems to be not an obse problem but more a problem of mods using the tamriel ws by obse commands (?)

AWLS doesn't refers to Tamriel once. It cares only about the building (in architecture folders of the meshes), the weather condition and the time of day. It checks for statics from the architecture folder all around the player at a range of 4 cells around and apply the animation to them according to the weather and the time of day. Not once is the place the player is in (tamriel or elseweyr for instance where AWLS still works according to the users) mentioned. So if there is an issue, it pertains to the way the code is handled by the game I guess.

Edit: AWLS uses the walking reference system (get the references of the items around you at any time). I don't think that Enhanced Weather does that and I don't know if the others mods are either...

Only thing I can figure is there's a glitch in the GetParentCell function for OBSE that's not playing nice with an extended worldspace. Otherwise it makes zero sense why parenting it to Tamriel.esp would matter.

If you want to know if the ref walking is having an impact, AN Real Lights does that to check for skydomes to change the image on. If that breaks too then it's not the GetParentCell function.

And GetParentCell is not an OBSE function but a vanilla one... So if that one can only be handled if the reference is set inside the limit of 130 cells, it would explain the issue.

Map Marker Overhaul uses "GetFirstRef 28 2" / "GetNextRef" (to find nearby undiscovered map markers), similar to what Ismelda mentions that AWLS does. So it may be that we're onto someting, that those ref walking functions causes CTD when ref walking in those far away cells. It seems like we may be onto something that maybe the OBSE team need to look at.

http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/GetParentCell says that's an OBSE function though, and it's in the OBSE function docs at http://obse.silverlock.org/obse_command_doc.html

Ooops, my bad...

yeah maybe this is really something the obse team should have a look at....it seems that a few commands do not work very well with an extended worldspace..or at least an extended tamriel ws....in this case it was also new and a bit surprising that the game recognizes the tamriel ws as 8 x 8 quads when scripted anyhow...
will test now if a dependent MMO will work

thx for your help :foodndrink:

I didn't have any problems playing thru the extreme edges of your heightmap, Onra, and I always play my game with Oblivion Script Extender all the time! In fact, I just got thru with playing in the far westernmost tip of the Summerset isles and even swam further west, so far west to the point where the waters of the sea finally end (the extreme end of the heightmap) and you fall off into table-flat dry land, and I didn't even experience any single freezes or CTD! And I did this all on one single play time all the way from the main entrance of the Imperial City!

And, btw, where in your heightmap is this cell 130/-130 located at on the heightmap? It isn't like past the edges or way past the edges, is it? Because this one I'm kinda curious about! And if there is a way to show coordinances on the game, I'd like to know about it!

Edit: I actually found the coordinates! And yes, I went way past those coordinates in all directions without any problems (no freezes, no CTDs)! I even went to coordinates 145/-147 and played around that area, which is past the area where the sea waters ends and endless flat dry land occurs, and this area was way southeast of Argonia! So no problems for me going past the 130/-130 area!

...it is not obse in general..I have a lot of obse mods running without a problem...as it seems there is a problem with special obse commands ...so far I notice the problem with the 3 mods mentioned above, which is really bad as these mods (especially MMO and AWLS) are must have mods ....

btw making both mods dependent on the tamriel heightmap esp solved the problem for me atm

cheers

Well this is strange - I've used AWLS with Onra's heightmaps and was able to go all over.

That was a version or two back on the heightmaps.

How did you make them dependent - just use Gecko?

hmmm which version you are talking about, the new one providing complete tamriel in one esp, or the old version coming as modular maps ? Also I have tested the new map a long time without noticing the problem....it is only the far west ,far east and far north where you will notice the error ..you can walk around in Skyrim, Hammerfell, Valenwood, Black Marsh. High Rock..and even Vvardenfell and Solstheim without a problem...I just noticed the problem during testing the Summerset stuff I am working on...

I used tes4edit and added the tamriel.esp as a master

ok had another test drive...

my AWLS advanced esp works perfectly when made dependent (using Tes4edit) on the tamriel heightmap ( wrye bash suggested to merge it into the bash patch)

MMO doesn't work anymore when made dependent (no crashes though)

oblivion XP doesn't work anymore whem made dependent (no crashes )

Oblivion XP only uses getFirstRef and getNextRef, so that seems to confirm that it's those functions causing the problem. It scans the surrounding cells for NPC's and builds an array with their references. All this is in only one script.

The current "production" version uses getFirstRef 69 2 to scan the surrounding 24 cells. I have reduced that to getFirstRef 69 1 in the upgrade I'm working on, but I have to see if that continues to work.

The one other thing with Ob XP is that it is set up to give points for SI quests. It's not dependent on SI (I don't have SI and I can run it fine), but it does have checks in the code to try to detect SI and I'm not quite sure about the detection code SirFrederik uses.

if TestExpr ( player.getInWorldSpace SEWorld )	let isSIInstalled := 1	if ( player.getInWorldSpace SEWorld )		let distanceFromCivilization := 3	else		let distanceFromCivilization := 0	endifelse	let isSIInstalled := 0	returnendif

So I don't know if getInWorldSpace is compatible with what you're trying to do. I've seen other code that can be used for testing for the presence of SI and I can look into utilizing that instead, if getInWorldSpace is a problem.

Lastly, there is some code that rewards points for finding new locations. The amount of points awarded depends on how far you are from the nearest city. He uses a variable called distanceFromCivilization. I'm not sure how this works yet, but that might be an issue for you as well.

So that begs the question of why getFirstRef and getNextRef cause this. For what it's worth, I can't get past -130/130 either.

Even more interesting question is why making Tamriel.esp a master to mods using that function solves the problem. I wouldn't think that should matter in the slightest.

Unfortunately making Tamriel.esp a master didn't work all that well for Ob XP. It didn't crash, but didn't work either.

I might have a look at getFirstRef and getNextRef, but my C++ is pretty rusty...

strange thing ...it works for AWLS only....not for MMO and Oblivion XP ( both mods do not work anymore when having the tamriel esp as master) Ireally hope the obse guys will be able to solve this as MMo and oblivion XP are fantastic mods which I use myself :violin:

That's why I mentioned my temporary fix. I think AWLS only scans the neighbouring 8 cells (uses getfirstref xx 1). I have reduced the scan radius for Oblivion XP to only scan the surrounding 8 cells. Would you like to try this version? I can't release it to the public because I don't have SI yet, so one of the scripts is broken in my version. I ordered SI just for Ob XP - how's that for dedication

So, we don't think it's any of the other commands? I still have to track down the distance from civilization thing, but is getInWorldSpace ok?

EDIT: Just tracked down the distance from civilization settings - this could be a problem too. Or you'll just get a ton of points from anything you discover in the extended worldspace

Here's a snippet of the code:

	if ( player.getInWorldspace Tamriel )		;anvil = ( -189714, -29375, 298 )		let civilizationPosition["x"] := -189714		let civilizationPosition["y"] := -29375		let civilizationPosition["z"] := 298 		;distance		let tempFloat := ( ( playerPosition["x"] - civilizationPosition["x"] ) ^ 2 ) + ( ( playerPosition["y"] - civilizationPosition["y"] ) ^ 2 ) + ( ( playerPosition["z"] - civilizationPosition["z"] ) ^ 2 )		let distance := sqrt tempFloat

It goes through and does this for each city, figuring out which one is the closest to your current location. Based on that, it sets a multiplication factor between 1 and 5 and uses that to award the points when you find a new location. It also accounts for SI, so that's not a problem. There is also a default if none of the previous possibilities match. What does getInWorldSpace return with your mod?