Why shouldn′t you be able to do that? Once the Gates of Symmachus are opened, you can go through them and be "teleported" to the Mournhold interior. The surrounding city of Almalexia is a real exterior.

By the time Almalexia is released, the TR Inner Sea shoreline will extend as far as Bal Fell in terms of Vvardenfell locations. You can always water walk across from there, or make your way down from the more northerly parts of the mainland. Tel Branora would likely be an excellent crossing point.

It's all very exciting and personally, I think the way that Tamriel Rebuilt are working Mournhold into Almalexia and the world map is the best way to go about it - Period. The reason why I enjoy this project so much is because it leaves the original work unchanged and it sticks to the lore.


That reads a little offensively - Please don't tell other people what to do, especially when there is a lot of work ahead already. It requires a considerable deal more than just copying and pasting.

I think TR should stick to the original plan, there are a few people who don't like it but overall I don't think there will be many complaints. And otherwise after the release people who don't like it can give it a try themselves and release it as a TR mod.

"Just" - That's a simple word to describe something that's anything but simple. The actual feat of creating an open exterior out of such an interior is probably doable, but a major job unto itself. The REAL problem comes with the consequences of doing so. First, it would require extensive modification to the original interior (a definite "no-no" according to TR policy), which would most likely conflict with every other mod that makes changes to the area. It would effectively "lock" Mournhold into an unalterable portion of the game, because you'd have to mod both the TR mod and the original, and offer seperate versions for those who do or don't use TR.

Whether or not it's the "best" solution, it's at least a well thought-out and workable answer. I'm not going to lose sleep over it, and I'm just grateful that they're still working on this huge project after all this time.

Hey, Is princess stomper's mournhold expanded going to be included? Or will it still work alone?

No. I don't know if it will work with TR, but it should, assuming it doesn't change Vanilla Mournhold cell names, or modify the Mournhold side of the Gates of Symmachus.

I do not know how that mod works, but our mod links the gates of symmachus to our exterior. If that mod touches that door it will not be compatible.

We are most certainly not going to merge that mod with ours. We expand Mournhold by linking it to Greater Almalexia, not by doing anything with the city. (any expansion beyond this would be ludicrous)

Sorry for creating all this confusion Haplo. I just assumed that the question asked was only about making the capital city of Morrowind bigger. I guess I jumped alittle too fast at the chance to show-off TR's largest city :hehe:

I appreciate TR's willingness to stick to their self prescribed rules and to not touch Bethesda's original work. In many situations, not having this type of rule would have caused problems. At least now there can be mods to TR that can alter it in any way that you want. If it were otherwise, you would have no choice about an exterior Mournhold or an altered Vvardenfell, and for a lot of people that would have been a problem.

I for one will be adding Mournhold to the exterior cells and adding a scripted mechanism for preventing levitation inside the walls and preventing over the wall travel. I will script this behavior to cease upon Almalexia's death. In addition to this I will probably add some way to make travel between the mainland and Vvardenfell more difficult until Dagoth Ur's death. Remember, there's a quarantine due to the presence of the blight on Vvardenfell, but I can't really imagine how the empire would go about a quarantine of such a large island. I assume it's not a militaristic blockade. It's probably only a hold on travel between ports of the island and the mainland except for government business (like your prison ship). So once the blight stops I will script-enable ship travel between ports. The last thing I will do is to add interaction between Almalexia and Mournhold quests, and mainland and Vvardenfell quests so that travel between them is necessary for the completion of both original and TR quests. I suppose adding a few additional quests that are based on Vvardenfell but require travel to the mainland (and vice versa) is something I'd like to add too, but I think other people will probably design some good mods for this purpose.

Anyway, I'm only spewing my future modding intentions to give people who want TR to break their #1 rule some ideas about how to overcome their dislike of its consequences through modding (arguably MW's greatest strength). Don't worry guys, enough people want this type of mod (to TR) that it will probably happen in a well designed and maintained mod. I can predict that initially there will be several mods that attempt this (with small differences in implementation), but over time I assume that one will become the community standard and thus allow all mods to the Vanilla Mournhold to have a compatibility plugin for Tamriel Rebuilt + "Exterior Mournhold" (or whatever).

There already is a mod that links the Census and Excise in Seyda Neen to TR.

Something I don't you and many other people realize is that the mournhold districts don't even make a perfect circle. It isn't as simple (and even this isn't simple) as copying it over to the exterior.

I agree. It is not simple maybe even impossible(copy/paste). But reading Greendogo's post, I have hope it will be done one day, the hard way. (Opening an Oblivion city would be harder, I guess yet they(almost all of them) have opened.)

For those empty areas between districts: modders will be happy to find space to add new stuff to Mournhold.

I'm the mischief-maker amn't I? :spotted owl:

If Princess Stomper's mod adds a new door to access the "exterior", it should still function. If it uses the existing doors, TR will alter them and they won't work any more. Having one door take you to one exterior and another nearby door take you to a totally different surrounding city would seem more than a bit weird, but at least it should function. All it should require is either repositioning or adding a new door in the CS to access the old mod.

You know that idea of the quarantine never makes sense to me - The East Empire Company is obviously shipping goods between Cyrodiil and Vardenfell - importing alcohol and exporting kwama eggs, Bug musk and resources - Vvardenfell receives slaves and I would believe saltrice from House Dres - there are not enough farms on the island to support the population so it would seem logical House Dres is supplying them with food.

Settlers are surely still coming into Vvardenfell despite the blight

Asciene Rane doesn't put up much resistance to transport the player to Mournhold.

So I think you are close to the mark that travel is restricted - but I would think it was for trade, moving the Imperial forces and for the political heavyweights of Vvardenfell to use

I suspect that total travel restriction is completely unpreventable - after all there are all the smugglers on the Bitter Coast who are likely making the short trip across the inner sea to Morrowind mainland to trade Dwemer artifacts and ebony - and would cause starvation and economic ruin of the population which would incite the Dunmer against the Emperor - something he is trying to avoid by sending the player there in the first place.

Sorry for the lore rant - the quarantine just doesn't make sense to me so I think you or other modders putting in travel between Tamriel and Vvardenfell is perfectly legit

I realize this. This doesn't make it impossible, but it makes it harder if it doesn't fit nicely in the exterior.

Thrignar Fraxix, do you know if the interior will even fit into the exterior while still leaving room for the water? If it fits, but doesn't leave a lot of room for water, this is OK and workable. But it is a much bigger problem if the interior overlaps all of the water area.

@Illuminiel - I'm glad that at least someone agrees with my logic :hehe:

Well the whole quarantine idea is just an excuse as to why you can't go to the mainland. It'd ruin the game if NPCs said: "Sorry, you can't go to the mainland of Morrowind because the developers at Bethesda Softworks were trying to meet a deadline and couldn't afford to spare an extra year or two in adding to the game." So instead, they use the "blight" version instead.

I mean, with daedra gates open in Cyrodiil, shouldn't there be a quarantine in Cyrodiil to keep everything from leaving?

It does fit within the borders and I seem to recall it fits fine north to south. Manor district and market district don't fill the space they should though.

The Oblivion gates were actually opened all over Tamriel (including Morrowind). This is how Ald'ruhn was destroyed.



I take it you mean that Godsreach and the Great Bazaar don't stick out as far West and East, respectively, as the Temple Courtyard and the Plaza Brindisi Dorom do to the North and South?

But that doesn't make any sense. Even if the Oblivion gates only opened in Cyrodiil, the Blight is an aggressive, contagious disease. The gates are just kinda there.
That's really not a sound reason to set up a quarantine.


I guess he means this here:
http://www.uesp.net/morrow/tribunal/quest/images/mournhold_small.jpg

Mournhold is really non-euclidian.

Oh yeah, it is messed up. Well that'll be a [censored] to fix.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f386/vtastek/morrowind/morrowindmisc/mournholdopened1.jpg

Well, I redesign it, with my paint skills. Good news we have 9 more cells to mod for Mournhold now . This would be an answer for those who say: "there isn't enough room for modding in Mournhold."

Someone with an architect's mind could bring a more elegant solution I'm sure.

Well at least with that solution we could get some more noble's residences, which I feel are lacking. Maybe some more park space. I see two major problems, however. #1, it goes strongly against lore (a paper map is pretty damn legit). #2, it would probably not fit into the moat in Almalexia anymore. I don't think I'd like that particular solution. Thanks for doing that mock-up Vtastek. I was wondering if it was workable, but I see now that it is definitely a mess. I think a redesign of the Plaza and Temple districts is in order. Make them larger and their angles more obtuse so that they fit correctly. The ratio of the primary and secondary line segments on either side of the connecting doorways needs to be kept as well so that they meet up on both sides.

I suppose the easiest way to do this would be to place the Bazaar and Godsreach into the external game world and then put the non-wall parts of the Temple and Plaza districts into the game world and build the walls up around them. The walls will definitely need to be custom modeled and the Temple and Plaza districts will need to be extended to fit the new available area. After the buildings, NPCs and plants (and all the door/travel markers) are placed all the Tribunal scripts specific to the interior version of Mournhold will need to be altered to work with the external version.

Edit: http://www.uesp.net/w/images/images.new/7/7c/Mournhold_map_Tribunal.jpg, I see that to be the same as the paper map, the walls and sizes of all four districts surrounding the Royal Palace need to be modified. They need to be reshaped and resized. Notice how the walls coming into the Palace area are perpendicular (90 degrees) to the next wall. This ensures that the proper externalization of Mournhold is going to be a real chore.

@Thrignar Fraxix or Haplo (or other TR representative) - Do you have any pictures of a completed version of Mournhold's outer walls that you guys are planning to use in Almalexia's moat? My thinking is that if your walls can encompass the entirety of each district's contents (minus the original walls, of course), then we don't have to worry about making new ones, but only filling them with the actual content and filling in the small amount of added space with streets or planters.

Hehe, if http://fessicsfavorites.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/raptormeat2_mournhold.jpg; then http://www.uesp.net/morrow/tribunal/quest/images/mournhold_small.jpg already breaks it. Your way will be more true to lore.

At the end more than one Mournhold solution can be possible. Lore, noLore.

I wouldn't call making mournhold the wrong shape breaking lore. Keep in mind that they intended the city to be perceived as it is shown in the map, and if it weren't for people making those images or modding mournhold no one would be any wiser. Saying that mournhold's shape is breaking lore is like saying a floating object is breaking lore. Its is an unintended physical mistake most people won't notice.

Aerial shot of mournhold in TR. Keep in mind that district walls are gone and that you can't quite see some of the overlapping of districts because of this. http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b94/ThrignarFraxix/MournholdFromAbove.jpg