There has been, of late, some serious criticism of how vampirism is implemented in Skyrim. While I have no doubt that some of the mechanics of the vampire have developed over the series, I think that the overall lore of vampirism is surpisingly consistant.

One of the more telling criticisms is that the Volkihar of Skyrim are indistinguishable from the Order in Cyrodiil. This comes from the account of the Volkihar in the in-game book "Immortal Blood". I would argue that this book isn't as much about relaying accurate information about vampire clans (its written by a vampire who's best intrest is in obfuscation) but about how he got one over on poor old Movarth. So I'm not sure we can accept "IB's" portrayal of the Volkihar, anyway.

I have said in another thread that I think most Skyrim vampires are not Volkihar, but members of the Order who are slowly driving out the other clans. I also suggest that they are, in fact, Berne vampires (from Morrowind). Their bonuses tend towards stealth-based play (versus combat a la Quarra) and Vincente Valtieri's account of his turning sounds to me like he was turned by the Berne. Berne vampires not being able to "blend in" in Morrowind was likely a gameplay choice - one expects of any of the clans they would be able to pass as uninfected (they are all about stealth and deception, no?).

I covet your thoughts.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1336967-there-is-no-way-the-vampires-in-skyrim-are-the-volkihar-how-in-the-hell/page__view__findpost__p__20131849

In case this thread sticks around longer than the link.

Writing a book about tricking a vampire hunter isn't very subtle in itself. If that actually was a vampire, it's either adapted from his private journal or something by another hunter or his ego is huge. The only way that would work is if he made it look like complete trash which might encourage people not to believe it or to entertain the notions of virtuous cyrodiilic vampires by making himself out to be at least like Hassildor or even pretending to be a nice perpetual teenager who never feeds on humans.
As for the Berne, they were really more capable of stealth than deception. They can hide in the dark or in a crowd. Cyrodiilic vampires
can hide in a spotlight, so long as the're well fed. They can actually talk to mortals. Berne look like vampires, as do Aundae and Quarra, so they avoid being noticed altogether. Which is something the're better at any other lineage we've seen, except perhaps for this one tribe in Daggerfall which could turn invisible. But that has its limitations.

Now I think about it, an autobiographical book about how "misunderstood" cyrodiilic vampires are and how they they do what they can to protect mortals from the evil Volkihar vampires who see mortals as food and disposable toys (grid reference 474739, -147593) would be a lovely retcon, even if it doesn't make actually playing a vampire any more fun.

Those are some interesting observations, but ultimately I believe they're just rationalizations for Bethesda being lazy, or not having enough time to implement vampires correctly. I think the easier (and more likely explanation) is that people on the forums were clamoring for vampires and werewolves so they did a few neat things for werewolves and then put vamps in as an afterthought.

I think there's a real trend of Bethesda for 'unrealized potential'. We all have seen what they're capable of, but they are either unwilling or actually unable to put in the effort to make vampires, or a dozen other things really 'special'. Like I said earlier, what you've posted in this thread seems like a rationalization to me.

Oh for pity's sake, that was supposed to be an edit.

Vampires in Skyrim are Volkihar, they just can't phase through walls because that would break the game.

Nowhere does it say that the Cyrodiilic clan was the only one capable of passing as mortal and walking in sunlight.

I don't know if you ever played as a vampire in Morrowind, but not being able to walk around in the sunlight is really [censored] hard, and made the main quest impossible. I'm glad they kept the Cyrodiilic powers, but calling it a retcon is just silly. It's game mechanics implemented so that you can actually play the game.

The retcon part was me trying to explain a theory in that thread without getting into an internet argument over it. The tone in some threads up north can be quite cold and unforgiving. Doesn't really fit in down south.

I've always played vampires in ES games that let me do it. In Morrowind I would just go indoors and sleep off the sun. As far as I remember the MQ is certainly possible but you miss out on a lot of the quests.

Vampires in Skyrim aren't Volkihar, except the ones called Volkihar Vampires. Because otherwise that distinction wouldn't make sense. Volkihar Vampires are comparatively rare in Skyrim, which suggests the theory that they've been hunted out of their traditional lands by other clans makes sense.

I like the idea that the majority of vampires in Skyrim are Berne, if only because that's the coolest option.

That theory just makes the state of Skyrimian vampirism (as it exists for the pc) more depressing.

Agreed, but it just kind of svcks that they felt the need to let people be vampires without really paying for it. I mean, there're hardly drawbacks to it, in Skyrim and Oblivion. In Morrowind you had to seriously consider whether you wanted the night-blood and its consequences. I would have preferred if Beth had taken a more Vampire Embrace approach to things, keeping the sunlight weakness immutable but letting you interact with people through bribes, intimidation, or Illusion. A vampire was totally playable with VE in Morrowind; you just had to bribe the [censored] out of everyone. Considering how easily money comes in Skyrim, that wouldn't really be too much of an inconvenience. Mostly I think Beth's not really into the idea of vampires in ES; they just sort of throw it in because it's part of the lore and they know people slaver over it.

i'd say theyre volkihar in skyrim, but beth had other priorities so they just copied the system from oblivion with some minor changes

this effectively made vampirism in skyrim fail lore-wise

gameplay-wise too, but that depends on player preferences

While it is true that a few Vampire clans MAY have managed to hide their Vampiric visage, it is not a common trait and only one clan is known to be able to do so as well as withstand sunlight. Vampires in the ES are identified by their Vamp faces and vulnerability to the sun. I do not consider the Vampire situation in Skyrim a retcon but a copout and a consequence of laziness because in every Elder Scrolls up to this point that has featured Vampires, we have been able to live the experiance of the Vampires that live in the featured region. The Vampires that are native to Skyrim are the Volkihar but instead of meeting them in any significant capacity we are given this slap in the face story about how the Vampires of Cyrodiil have crossed to Skyrim and given a copy and paste skill set from Oblivion.

The only thing that bothered me with Vampires in Skyrim was that the Sun didn't burn them (only makes their things unable to regenerate), and they changed the name of Porphyric Hemophilia to something too obvious and less realistic (Sanguine Vampiris)

And the creepy Dreams in Oblivion were cool too

I can't wait for Werewolf&Vampire to find this thread...
I think Immortal Blood had false information because it was written by a vampire and vampires try to hide their existence. So I think the Volkihar can blend in, but for different reasons than making a pact with Clavicus Vile, and the vampire priest said the were hideous so people would think that when Volkihar really can be living among them. That is just what I believe. Either that or the Volkihar made the same pact with Clavicus Vile so they could compete with the Order.

Ah, a topic the lore masters usually ignore. Ain't no Vivec here! Anyways...this is a debate I've been having in the Skyrim section for a long time now.


No. Why do people always ignore the damn manifesto? It's the biggest book of info we know on the Order. Hell, that's where we even got the name. "Order."

"To patron http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Clavicus_Vile, beacon oer our affairs, we owe our successes and social stature. Our bond with Vile makes us unique among our kind, for his guidance steels our savage craving with reason and savvy. For him we live amidst mankind, and twist them to our will from offices of power."

There you go. It says that their bond with Vile makes them unique among other vampires because they don't have as much bloodlust as the other vampires and they can walk among men looking like men. Morrowind vampires don't have stages of vampirism. They are always ugly, 24/7 and I am willing to bet they would tear out a person's throat every chance they get. Ever find a Morrowind or Illiac Bay vampire walking around in a damn city? Or talking to people without being shunned/feared or driven out? Only the Telvanni tolerate vampires in Morrowind.

Oh and about the sunlight: "Avoid daylight by lifestyle."-Manifesto.

Why would they tell other vampires to avoid daylight by lifestyle? Shouldn't it of been a warning to avoid daylight by certainty of survival? I am quite sure this implies they can walk in the sun, but they choose not to.



Found it! Haha.

And that would be so horrible. What? Out of nowhere the Volkihar try to do the same exact pact with Vile to blend in? What, all of the sudden they took shame in their paranoid ways and finally decided to act civil? I don't think Immortal Blood is false, because it holds truthful facts about the Cyrodiilic vampires. That they can blend in and that they prefer to feed on sleeping people.

Same goes for the vampires in Skyrim, who are now being called "The Volkihar". Like Oblivion, they feed on sleeping people, can walk around in the sun, and can blend in.

Truthfully...I think Bethesda never gave a rat's ass about vampires. They were too busy trying to overwork those flying lizards and some dovah-stuff or whatever. My opinion, if you can't get vampires right, just don't add them into the game.

And Movarth's presence confirms that Immortal Blood was not false, unless someone wants to go ahead and debate with a "Oh, he got knocked out instead of being bitten." or "Eh, a Volkihar bit him before the Cyrodiilic vampire did."

Wait, what? Please. What part of "He did not land the first blow, or the last." did you people(Not Dmel) not understand?

Damn you found it...
I think it is possible the book is false, and I think he is going to write correct info on the Cyrodiilic vampires because he is one and he wants to show off how amazing they are, you know because they think they are better than all other vampires (which they are). So if the book is false then it is possible the Volkihar can blend in, but they choose not to and instead live in frozen lakes. In reality though I think it is either Bethesda was too lazy to change the vampirism from Oblivion's or they ran out of time and decided to just implement Oblivion's version with minimal changes, the only reason I doubt they ran out of time is because they made the whole quest with Movarth meaning they took time to make that so I think they purposely reused Oblivion's so players could play the game without vampirism making it nearly impossible. I think Todd Howard enjoys vampires and likes them in the games, but he has to make the game based around what he thinks the whole community wants not just a small portion; I read somewhere where someone said that Todd Howard does like vampires and would like to spend some time on them and maybe make them a separate race or give them really cool abilities and skills, but that was a long time ago that I read that.
I liked how you said (Not Dmel) in that part that made me laugh.

Yeah, I don't like to mention names. Let's just hope that certain someone doesn't find this topic as I did. Unless they go to my profile and search up posts and stalk me here to the lore section. Unlikely.

On regards to vampirism, I just think it's safe to say Bethesda got too lazy and re-used the Oblivion vampires and stuck a stamp on their foreheads declaring "Bloodied vampire" and the higher ones named "Volkihar" just to make the fans all happy.

Lore-wise, it's contradictory. I mean, vampires were always suppose to be ugly and horrific. Though I remember reading about the ones of Illiac Bay and they seemed to act as the Order did as well, being able to infiltrate human society as the official booklet said. Though it was lost long time ago, but I remember reading it on the Imperial Library. So it's safe to say SOME vampires can blend in, in a way. I just wish Bethesda would elaborate more on the matter instead of making my head spin.

Through reading the lore, it is suggested that some Vampires other than the ones in Cyrodiil may have learned to blend in but through what means are unknown. They were referred to as "smart" so that could merely suggest that they are more careful, masks, magic, etc. Overall however, Vampires have permanent Vamp face. Lore and Gameplay support this, blending in with the human/mer populace is not a common power and even the Vampires in Cyrodiil could only do it if they stayed well fed. Vampires were consistant with lore up until this point so my guess would be, like Werebeast, Vampires were added in as an afterthought which is why we have the same style seen in Oblivion.

Ok, stop saying "lazy." Bethesda literally has to build everything from scratch in each game. You can't just hit copy/paste across game engines.

They contradict their own lore big time and they don't even bother to clarify which clan is prominant in Skyrim.

That isn't laziness though. That's a recognition that a certain game's mechanics are more fun to more people than the previous games, and recreating a similar model. Surprise, they like money!

Still, it's butchering their own lore. Wouldn't it be easier to write an ingame book saying the Volkihar were wiped out? Instead of giving them the powers and the traits of Cyrodiilic vampires?

It is funny you said that about him looking at your profile because I have done that to see if I have missed any threads on vampires or werewolves since you tend participate in those threads haha. I would like to know how some of the other vampires blend in, I assume it it by simply hiding their face in some way.

Using the magical plastic surgery spell to conceal their apperance. All I know is that vampirism changes the person's apperance. For example, in Skyrim when you become a werewolf and you are seen by the people, you receive a bounty. Or if you transform back to human form.

Vampirism, at least for me, you don't get a bounty at all. I always thought that was weird. I read vampires of Illiac Bay and I found out that the man who became a vampire died and rose again three days later. He went to a tavern wench whom he was great friends with. And she didn't even recognize him at all. So I guess the fourth-stage you look like a walking corpse, and when in the first stage, you look more human-like. At least for the "Cyrodiilian/Skyrimian" vampires. I think in Daggerfall, you are permantetly changed until you find a cure.

That makes sense and kind of explains how they can blend in, like mentioned in the Manifesto book, the vampires of High Rock live in the Breton cities.