You know, we're all I think missing one big point. Stuff is moving about and advancing, just not on the implausible rails of the real world's historical development.

For example, there was once a type of Daedroth that the Ayleids would summon to do their bidding. As mortals learned how to summon more powerful Daedra, no one summoned that one anymore.

Look also at the differences between Skyrim and Vvardenfell Dwemer mecha. The access to use of Falmer souls and different mineral content in the soil meant that their cities and mechs were designed differently.

Third, the creation, discovery and removal of different spells. Wards work differently in 4E201 than they did in 3E433.

So while there is no sense whatsoever in expecting TES to start transforming into the real world technologically, there is every reason to expect there to be some manner of changes.

Another issue is people don't seem to be assuming that magic and technology won't grow as one. Enchantment is tech. Look at the Dwemer.

because guns are boring and have no place in TES

thats why

the real firepower is magic

Oblivion yah! [censored] your cannons! We got MAGES!

I would not try to see gameplay changes (and TES is, first and foremost, just the backdrop to a series of computer games) as in-game developments. You can't win this one. Levitation suddenly stopped working (not only that, no one even knew or taught that spell anymore) within a few years, and no one's ever talking about it except maybe M'aiq? 4th era mages lost the capability to make spells of their own, without anyone ever mentioning the fact or trying to rediscover it? Crossbows and spears suddenly falling into disuse?
Some things are better left what they are: Game development overriding world building.

Bingo.
Though, as a spear lover, I find it a little frustrating that they can make steel/ebony/glass armor, but are incapable of putting a pointy piece of metal on the end of a stick.

if you can shoot a fireball with nothing but your hands why would you ever bother with trying to make the next step after a crossbow?

on a more realistic note,

guns have no place in TES and they day they show up, many people never look at the series again

Because it's hard to blast walls with a fireball; explosives come in quite handy there. And while you're at it, you could as well try to shoot rocks with the stuff. The first use of gunpowder weaponry were cannons, not guns.
Also, your magicka may run out quickly, esp. when your common soldier hurls fireballs. But you can distribute guns to them, and they hopefully last a bit longer.

Some obvious applications are lacking in Tamriel, sure. But that doesn't mean that there are no uses at all.

Magicka will recharge on its own over time. Gunpower will need to be carried and eventually restocked. I suppose the deciding factor would be how much magicka the casters have in reserve, and how quickly it would regenerate.
On the other side of the argument, however, the average soldier probably wouldn't have too much training with magic, and wouldn't be able to cast a fireball in the first place. That's where easily produced weapons that try to replicate the effects of magic would come in. Come to think of it, though, if the other side had just one mage who could shoot fire, and all of your men were loaded with extra stores of gunpowder...things could get kinda messy.

Firearms and more modern-ish technology might not be beyond the reasonable scope of Tamriel, but I still don't think firearms belong in TES. Maybe some kind of explosive devices to a limited extent (like for sieges, à la the movie version of The Two Towers), but not firearms. And this is coming from a guy who would take a good high-powered rifle over some frou-frou magic spell any day. It's not that firearms would be impractical or even impossible in TES; they just don't seem to fit with the setting to me.

Yep; I know that discussion from PnP worlds.
In the end, it boils down to style and taste: weapons with a bang often clash with the accepted style and aesthetics of a fantasy world. It's not that it would be impossible that they'd get developed, they don't seem to fit the mood. There are worlds doing that right (in computer games, Arcanum comes to mind, or the Wizardry series for not only firearms, but space ships and robots), but the tone, the feeling of those worlds is somewhat different than what the ES games have established.
Which is a perfectly fine reason for leaving gunpowder or at least firearms (explosives usually aren't that bad) out of the games.

Why no guns or pick up trucks or television sets?

Because this is TES, and those things would be stupid in TES. The idea "logically they would advance over so much time" is totally moot. Logically, you wouldnt be able to hold your hand up, point your finger at the ground and create a glowing trip mine that exploded violently in electrical shocks. Logically, you wouldnt be able to kill a being from another plane of existence, and then use it's heart to smith a new kind of metal.

References to reality or real world logic are needed in a very limited form for a fantasy world to be relateable and enjoyable. Limited form. Very important that part, lest the fantasy world becomes too much like the real world people are trying to escape for a brief while. People trying to come up with some kind of lore based argument for or against the idea of medernization in TES are wasting their time. Bethesda, in relation to real world buisness, which is the bottom line in all discussions of game lore and design- would be total idiots to introduce flint lock pistols to TES.

"You dont bring a sword to a gun fight" and all that implies to what would happen to the game series.

Actually, the Chinese (who invented the stuff) were using it for rockets long before guns were invented.

Yeah, I thought about adding "in Europe and the Middle East", but then was too lazy.

The example of the crossbow comes to mind. The Greeks used them (for centuries, archers were belittled in the culture and literature as "effeminite" or "cowardly"), the Romans developed them further both as light hunting weapons and as "artillery", and then, as the Empire collapsed and the Dark Ages ensued, they vanished. Turns out, any peasant with a crossbow was a threat to a fully armored noble, so obviously the crossbow had no place in a feudal system, and had to be eliminated. The Church banned their use, but later permitted them against other faiths when the situation in the Middle East got desperate. Once re-introduced, it was hard to stop their spread.

Meanwhile some enterprising traders brought back a couple of new explosive "trinkets" from China (which were tightly controlled there, and not developed further until Westerners returned with them centuries later), and so the western world began a long and convoluted arms race to build bigger and stronger guns. Later, Japan first empraced the introduction of firearms, then erased it from their culture for the same reasons as the medieval Europeans had centuries before: it was a threat to the established order of peasantry and nobility.

Technology moves both forward and backward, often for cultural reasons.

I was shocked the first time I read The Iliad. Paris gets ridiculed repeatedly because his primary weapon is the bow. "Real men" fought with spears and swords.

As much as I like fantasy roleplaying games that allow me to use swords and bows I would hate to live in a period of time in which these weapons were actually used.

I've seen many points like this but I still can't see the appeal surrounding this particular standpoint. In the end you mean that a weapon, in this case a firearm, is rendered moot by the presence of magic? If so, then how come there are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands users of blades, axes, daggers, bows etc? Why go through all the trouble of smithing armour when you can just pop up a shield with alteration? Saying that a normal weapon becomes useless thanks to spells is like saying that a car is rendered useless by the presence of jets.

If I used the same logic in the car vs jet comparison I'd just have to say that a jet is faster, it can carry more passengers and more cargo and ta-da, I would have done the same as some people do with magic. But anyone with half a brain would soon realize that there are both pros and cons to getting a jet. Taking a Boeing 747 to the grocer a couple of miles away and finding a parking spot would be pretty awkward. It also costs a fortune compared to a car, same goes for fuel, piloting a big jet is probably not on the same level as driving a car etc etc.

fair point, though the simple answer to the question still is: guns have no place in TES

and if there would be they'd be something they got in warcraft so theyre still on par with other ranged weapons, or theyd murder the game balance

they best leave the guns in fallout, it works there but not in TES

Influences on three of the TES race advances as I see them at present.


Imperials

Ancient = ancient Greece into Roman Empire era
http://theoldgiftshop.com/images/helmets/ir80628.jpg
http://warandgame.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/48644oplitismi9.jpg
http://romanmilitary.net/images/guard4.jpg


Modern = Roman Empire going into Medieval Roman (Holy Roman Empire) / Renaissance Europe.
http://www.deviantart.com/download/57287915/OBLIVION_IMPERIAL_GUARD_by_RAVENCLOUD187.jpg
http://www.michaelquach.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/OblivionDays1TheBloatedFloat_FF29/image_4.png
http://www.warandgamemsw.com/img/upload/dfbttdrfghtergterg.jpg


Nords

Ancient = ancient mythological Norse / Scandinavian
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSw0vWTXQP3BHPlU5pDHqkOLbbyFH6ioRPR-j_CKGjC9NRV0RwUPVgiBTdp
http://bnbgaming.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/skyrim.jpg
http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens1869593_1329747496a-aa_.jpg

Modern = Norse / Scandinavian into Teuton (Teutonic Knights) Northern Europe
http://www.dontiffney.com/images/Viking%20WarriorDTP123.jpg
http://www.wulflund.com/images_items/norman-warrior-figure_2.jpg
http://www.michtoy.com/michtoy/PEG-90046.jpg
http://britishbattles.homestead.com/files/europe/centraleurope/teutonic_knights_await_battle.jpg

Bretons (mostly unchanged in cultural identity as still living closer to nature)
http://marion-alan.com/images/Marion2/Celtic%20Warrior%20W.LeissMarion%2054mm.jpg
http://eshop.friendshipmodels.org.uk/WebRoot/BT2/Shops/BT3667/4B8F/96E7/C28B/3579/91B5/0A0A/33D4/9F08/WF12003.jpg
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJRZDdshN54rZ6BVzvGzlNMW6iGU8gQnnLo2xoVC1uw41CzGUcVvKJO-9Z
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4PJk9OlhW5Y/Tb_x2uxZnJI/AAAAAAAAB6g/x9iE1coxvao/s1600/Magic+Wizard.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lyGMLJdWfDU/T1ZytAoL1oI/AAAAAAAAAuA/FwOY6jTFrM0/s1600/Wizard.jpg
http://www.dana-mad.ru/gal/images/John%20Howe/Celtic/john_howe_celtic_wizard%20fantastic.jpg

At least for the Imperial Legions, that is not an advance, but a decision on artistic style. Oblivion was a rather generic pseudo-medieval fantasy world, and its Legion likewise pseudo-medieval knights. Skyrim goes a step backwards and makes them into ancient Romans again.

I don't see how the Nords would fit that Teutonic knights image. Skyrim's Nords wear a wild array of armour and clothing, but it tends to look like the former, "ancient" style.

Bretons of High Rock, a very much civilized and urbanized society as you get in Tamriel, living "closer to nature"?

Appearance has more to do with art style and game design, than with technological advances or similar developments.

I was thinking more of crusader armor from Knights of the Nine. Its hardly Roman in appearance so I wouldn't say it was very Imperial in design. Nords claim to be more like Nedes.


Think of the Forsworn. They are racially connected to Bretons. They have witches etc like the old Celtic culture.

Nord(ic) in real life are Norse / Norman (people of Scandinavia) and we can see this infuencing the Nord lore. Breton in real life is a branch of Celt originating from south west Britain. Celts were closer to nature and often lived in the forests or the hills. It was the invading armies such as the Romans & the Anglo Saxons that were more of urbanised society and built large stone keeps or towns with stone walls etc.

as long as there is magic in the world of Nirn i don't think they will ever progress like we do. cause why do that when they can just have magic do it for them. read all the sword of truth books it pretty much explaines why they don't progrees like we do in a world of magic. or if you don't feel like reading 12 book just read the law of the nines. it some what related to the sword of truth book book but set in our world. so its a stand alone book but some of the things in the book you would have to have had read the sword of truth. or at least read the last 2 chapter i think of the last book of the sword of truth then read the law of the nines.

cause in TLOTN is set in our time so its like thousands of years after the end of the sword of truth book and in the sword of truth world they still don't have stuff like guns or cars as you will find out through one of the main characters.

As I've assumed you have vikings in mind (like everyone else when we are talking Nords) I have to say that these pictures doesn't represent them properly. The first one isn't all that bad to be fair, but not perfect either, while the Amon Arath cover shows something akin to a Warhammer Chaos warrior rather than a Norseman. Since I'm in the mood I'm going to link some illustrations depicting viking-age Scandinavians.
http://www.doyle.com.au/images/gathering.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3285/4560753932_0b17da9012.jpg
http://www.doyle.com.au/images/sanhogg.jpg
http://www.theartoftimide.com/pics/Vikingbattle.jpg

On the first picture: While it's likely that you'd have more than a few Norseman wearing such a helmet I have to point out it's not Norse in design, but Slavic. Many vikings did go east (mainly Swedes) so as said it's both plausible and probable that a viking would wear it, but I'd like to avoid any misunderstandings if possible.
Second picture: As it's name suggests it's a Norman warrior, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's from Scandinavia. There were Normans in Normandy, France (hence the name) for instance, so he might be French in most ways. His gear isn't all that unique either since you'd see similarly geared knights or warriors all around Europe, depending on the time period.
Concerning the third and fourth pictures: Both might also fit the Bretons, to be honest. Aside from them being Knights of religious orders, they fit the western European feudal picture pretty well. To be fair, medieval Scandinavia would be similar, with nobles and knights and peasant levies, just less developed. But it feels more like Nords are a mix of stereotypical vikings and barbarians rather than proper medieval Scandinavians, like the ones seen here. http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg59/scaled.php?server=59&filename=53473942.jpg&res=medium

But while the name "Bretons" may sound like a connection to Britain and Celts, they have a vastly different role in TES. "Historic Bretons did X, therefore TES Bretons do X, too" is a false conclusion. There may be hints at similarities, but for each of those, you have to look specifically if it holds true.
Witches are not exclusive to Forsworn (nor Celts in RL); even if TES-Bretons have Celtic influences in one area, that doesn't mean that we can ascribe them characteristic usually connected with Celts in other areas.

I honestly didn't understand what you wanted to say with your reference to Knights of the Nine and the Nords.

Viking is a term that came around later and come from the Norse / Nordic people shouting something like "vikking" when on raids. It wasn't a proper term for a the time.

When I say Norse, I am not just speaking about the real Norse, though I think it is blatantly evident that this influence is there, but being it is a fantasy rpg and therefore isn't trying to be a real world mirror image, I feel it draws as much from Norse / Nordic mythology and similar such artwork and Norse fantasy.


Again it is Celtic lore and Celtic mythology as opposed to real life Celts. If you look into the myths and pagan worship of the Celts then you will see the clearer connection.

Merlin from the legend of King Arthur is one example of a wizard who was supposed to be a Celtic druid left behind from the old world of Britain. The whole sword of Excalibur and the lady of the lake is supposed to be from Celtic mythology.

Even if we were going back to real world ancient Britons as opposed to the magical and exagerated world seen in the fantasy and mythological world related to them, then look at the portrayal of the ancient Britons in films such as the Eagle or Centurion and again we see people fitting in with the Forsworn.

I say Knights of the Nine as the armor they wear looks like elite knights of later Germanic / Scandinavian in design which out of all the TES races would be most comparable with the culture of the Nords of Skyrim.

Not what I've heard about the term. I'm lazy enough to quote the Wikipedia article on vikings rather than writing it myself: "The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse feminine noun víking refers to an expedition overseas. It occurs in Viking Age runic inscriptions and in later medieval writings in set expressions such as the phrasal verb fara í víking "to go on an expedition". In later texts such as the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_sagas, the phrase "to go viking" implies participation in raiding activity or piracy, and not simply seaborne missions of trade and commerce."

And to be honest I should say viking-age Scandinavians, since that's what I meant overall and not only the vikings raiders. And not sure what you're getting at by saying they didn't use the same names to refer to themselves as others do, since that's the case with many groups. Both old and modern.

That's the one. Baring in mind I was writing from personal knowledge and memory. I was still basically correct. That was without going away and looking it up. It was still a term that came around later from a expression / shout they used whilst on expeditions or as I stated "raids".

fara í víking!! I shout.