Yeeeeeeessssss.

The long run economic benefits are too big to ignore.

Think militarily. Wizards spending decades to lob magical projectiles cannot compete with cheapness and swiftness of training a soldier to shoot a gun. In a few weeks, a soldier armed with a gun would be as dangerous and efficient as a Battlemage that has to invest sooo much more time.

That would make magic obsolete by technology. So there is that danger of ruining the setting w/ magic becoming an antiquated and unprofitable career.

It's interesting to argue that in the present TES, magic makes technology unnecessary. But if technology were introduced, it would be the other way around

EDIT:



This sounds a lot like Galerion's founding of the mages guild

and one mage can melt the contraptions of a dozen soldiers and send them flying while being beset on immortal Dremora

and explosive material already exists....im not sure if its prevelant in Cyrodiil, but Cyrus experienced a stock pile of fireworks....so

Just wanted to emphasize that, since that's really what this is all about.

There will be absolutely no guns in the TES universe. That's not an opinion, but a direct and unequivocal statement from Todd Howard. Get over it.

But...Todd isnt the creator nor indefinent say so on what the TES universe has....

Mining elevators? Maybe. Steam ships? No!

A little technology and cool stuff by the dwemer is... well... cool

But anymore than basic pully stuff, and it ruins the novelty of the game IMO.

Golly gee, you are so right. How can I be so stupid.

Oh wait, wait... you think I want guns in TES? Haha, it's a good thing I didn't say that. You had me going there for a second.

I think people are ignoring the potential of society and culture to stunt technological growth. There are examples throughout history where things were invented and never picked up or may have been commonplace, but were lost. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the Greeks invented a steam engine. Nothing was ever done with it. The Greeks didn't that kind of advancement. The Phiastos Disc is about the earliest known example of printing, but was never picked up. The Chinese invented gunpowder, but only took it so far. From what I've read, it wasn't because they were incapable, but because an Emperor decided nothing good would come of it and put a stop to further firearm development. There's also the Antikythera Mechanism. Similar devices may have been in wide spread use at the time, but it was lost and nothing like it was seen again for a very long time. The Chinese were also known to have used some very advanced water powered mills, but they were lost and never rebuilt. The people returned to more primitive methods. The Romans had hydraulic cement and built massive structures with it, but it was lost with the collapse of the Empire. It wasn't discovered again until the invention of portland cement in the 1800's.

All of these are examples that people don't always move forward. Some cultures do not see a need or have the impetus to move forward. Other times as a civilization collapses, institutions break down and knowledge is lost. Things are forgotten and not recovered for thousands of years. So it cannot be said with any certainly that the people of Nirn should be moving forward, especially at this specific point in time.

Im inclined to agree.....since Tamriel rarely ever had a moment of peace, always getting kicked in the teeth by Gods, constant wars, a massive time clusterfuzz that completely borked the timeline as well as a tribunal that went around screwing with other civilzations...like vivec turning ragada kings into women, and wiping out the druegh civilization....

yeah

Time doesn't always guarantee progression. There are still very indigenous peoples here and there that freak out every time a helicopter flys near their villages. This was old news just last year.

As for the game, I'd like to think that the Nords are just traditionalists, preferring to keep their old ways because to them(and not really given civil strife..)they'd figure that what works for them works, so why try and progress beyond it all.

Personally I am hoping for more longboat use, or at least coastal scenery with great coastal towns. Makes it easier to rebuild when the dragons burn it all down, with water nearby.

The Tech in Morrowind almost, alllmost, was a deterrent for me. The Dwemer fit, in that it was advanced but ancient tech. I am not that much a fan of mixing too much sci-fi in my fantasy.

^this. I don't want steamboats or guns or major changes in the civilization... a steamboat would feel too "Tom Sawyer" to me in my opinion.

TES should not advance to something similar to our "Industrial Age" but maybe i do want a single new dwemer item for my character, like a repeating crossbow (or in my opinion, very crude explosives... don't hurt me)

Technology might be advancing somewhere in the Empire, but certainly not Skyrim. These are rustic barbaric Nords. Not Scientist.
That's like assuming technology would advance in like..Antarctica before somewhere in the US or Japan or something.

There were Dwemer satchel explosives in Tribunal, that were very hard to come by. So I could see one coming across those things in some ancient workshop or something.

On a side note, repeating crossbows were invented in China around 200 AD.

Somewhat true (though somewhat an exaggeration too).

A ) post-empire Nord's are probably going to be a little more civilized than what many of us think. many of us are thinking about the Nord's from Solstheim, and i feel like they would be way more barbaric than the Empire's Nords.

B ) during the 3rd Era, many of the races intermingled even more than before. Morrowind wasn't all Dunmer, Cyrodiil wasn't all Imperials, Skyrim isn't going to be all nords. There could definitely be inventors among the High-elves/bretons and other races.


yeah, and Greek Fire was invented around then too. That might be why i feel like these... dwemer-ish technologies might fit (crude explosives and repeating crossbows)

In regard to the Dwemer, as well as Tamriel's necessary conditions for tech advancement in general, http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1041436-guns-in-tes-5/page__st__60__p__15099666#entry15099666 starting from that post to the end of that thread. Substitute guns/firearms with technological advancement.


By framework, I don't mean in the sense of mechanics-framework that Dragonshouts fall under. And nor do I mean it in the sense of in-world explanation (which Dragonshouts do have by way of Thu'um). I meant in terms of what it means to attain progress in that world. In a world where Myth-Becomes-Real, and has multiple times, and where the Mythic is the ultimate goal (knowing Love as a Parent of All, for one), things like boring old bog-standard technology become relegated to boring.

What's to regress really? It's not like there was any advanced tech in Oblivion. I think they jsut meant the feel was more rustic.

All reasons why or whynot there is a logical reason for technology even after 200 years since oblivion is besides the point. SKYRIM is a game and in the theme of the game it makes ZERO sense to reason why there should be any technological advances such as "steamboats" etc....I find this logic completely backwards from the ES series and what has made it amazing.

This makes sense and would apply to Nirn.



Lolz, Nirnians.



While this is true, the more important factor is that the lore is not complete, nor does it EVER set out to explain something with absolute certainty. All the lore is somewhat subjective and much of it is lost in time.


My 2 cents - Anyone here ever played Jade Empire? Ancient China as it would be with all of it's "myths" and magic intact. In that game, there are great examples of advancements in technology that work hand in hand with the magical nature of the world. In fact, the only way half of that technology works is because of magic. And I have a perfect side-by-side comparison as well:

In The Infernal City, there is much mention of the ingenium, a magical engine that makes it possible for both the Tribunal temple to float and for Umbriel to float, which is powered by the absorption of souls. More on TIC below.

In Jade Empire, the Imperial forces harness souls from slaves, corpses, and prisoners to make soul shards that power their army of golems. Note - Even more dramatic uses of machine w/magic fill this game than just that example.

Both of those examples are perfect for explaining how a world where magic is commonplace and holds great power can be harnessed INTO the technology of that world. To me, this is obviously similar to what Bethesda has gone for with TES. Take the Orrery for instance. A machine? Yes. It's function and purpose? Deriving magical meaning from the stars, and imbueing its user with magical power.

I see no problem with continuing THAT mode of thinking and progression for TES. It's already in place, so I think we should let it go from there.

And lastly, we know big changes take place during the events of TIC, and the epic conclusion to that story will take place in Lord of Souls. So, I can only imagine we will have yet to see the full ramifications of what has happened between OB and Skyrim until Sept. when we get to finish the story. Who knows what major changes are in store for Skyrim, Morrowind, Solstheim, and the rest of Tamriel?

You may be right about that since we saw a wind mill. I really don't mind the direction bethesda's taking, but technology in fantasy is rarely done and it might be cool. Thats all im saying.

Kill this right now.

Why no tech?

TES is a fantasy series of games. As soon as you introduce advanced tech, it becomes a sci-fi.

Boom!

technology wise i dont want to see any type of gun or steam powerd cars or boats. i wouldnt mind seeing the abilty to become a master blacksmith who is also has a high intellegence. high enough to be able to craft complex repeating crossbows, or special grappling hooks for thieves and assasins, or nifty litlle things like small swords concealed into guantlets or under clothing that can pop out with sping loaded mechanics, or some ballon type flying machines (like cids flying machine in final fantasy). but absolutly no guns, it was the addition of guns that ruined fable for me.

Thrud know technology! Thrud foot+enemie [censored]=thrud win!

There are several very good reason tech likely wont advance at all and may even slip. For one the empire fell.. that tends to cause tech to go backward.

For anouther the devs dont wana.. this is the deal breaker...

And for anouther its not even fuctionaly known if tech actualy works like you would expect due to magic messing with things. We know some forms of simple tech exist BUT we dont know if they work like on earth. The windmill for instance might nlot even work via mundane energy it might harness the energy of the wind passing through its weird fence like blades.

Doesn't really refute that technology could advance in Skyrim.

Sorry to question, but did you read the whole thread? The summary of varied points is as follows, as best I can recall:

1) Dwemer didn't create technology, they created Myth wrapped in the appearance of technology. Their treatises which might be learned from were metaphysical treatises, not engineering manuals (at least, not engineering in the pyhsical science sense). Dwemer are not where to look in terms of technological advancement.

2) Magic is the massively-instated tradition for advancing one's capability or ease. Any problems that might need to be solved have a magical or divine solution. And the extreme-to-the-point-of-almost-totality portion of the population will recognize magic as the natural progression towards solving automated or higher-order tasks. Want to advance yourself beyond your current limitations? Go talk to the local mages. Buy a scroll. Or a potion. Or join the guild. Or go to Arataeum. Or talk to the church/temple. Etc, etc. It's as firmly rooted an idea as saying IRL that giving an account of the nature of something implies understanding something, and that furthering oneself is possible by learning to understand one's surroundings. Magic, in TES, can alternately be contrived as that giving an account of that something, seeing as how Nirn itself is just a giant ball of creatia.

3) There have been over 6500 years before the Oblivion and the current time period, which held periods containing far richer conditions for the production of weapons: the inaccessibility of magic, the drive of necessity, the solidification of stable empires, the turmoil and war of other empires, etc, etc. And in all honesty, despite wavering political landscapes and old conceptual organizations with new names, there is little that has drastically changed that one might point to as the catalyst for why now is a wondrous time for tech to spring out of the ground. If there was ever a time for Merv the Metallurgist to make steamworks and logic gates, etc, it would be in those times that the Mages Guild never existed and something vastly needed to be done.
The absence of anything noteworthy, from any and everyone that ever lived, from any and every culture, from any and every time period, as well as the absence of (again) any definitive catalyst speaks volumes.

3) While it is certainly possible to construe scenarios in which tech is invented, all of these scenarios contain implausible rings to them; they're virtually always chains of insanely optimistic happenstance causes that prompt "inclusion-dictates-the-explanation" versus the always-better "explanation-dictates-the-inclusion." In other words, the inventor(s) of guns in a hypothetical scenario always tend to come off like a cluster[censored] of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu who can do anything they want despite any insurmountable odds against and with little to no justifiable work to overcome those insurmountable odds.

4) While the Aedra, being the good parents they are, don't often mess around with Tamriel, the Daedra certainly do. And you would think that, were technology as we're discussing conceptually possible in Nirn, that the Princes whose spheres are relevant to the tech in question would...
A: Have invented such tech, and...
B: Have given it over time to mortals, so to further their games in the mortal sphere, or...
C: Have nudged mortals into making it themselves through Daedric influence.
I mean, just as an example, Mehrunes Dagon is just custom-fit to have guns or explosives or any possible warfare-tech imaginable at his disposal. His spheres are Destruction, Revolution, Energy, Change, and Ambition; there's a lot of technical advancements that fit flawlessly within those bounds. And yet Mehrunes Dagon remains pragmatically undefined when it comes to said technology. Another example would be Herma Mora, whose knowledge would also certainly encompass the limits of possibility within the very conceptual nature of the world. Yet no mention of any tech for Mora's followers, ever.

5) And speaking of the Aedra, when they arrive on their creation and go to war with each other, Gods and creators as they are, notice how they, being creators, don't use technical advancements against each other or for each other. They use nothing more than what's already been presented in the world as it is: swords, bows, etc, and insane magic. Now why exactly would that be?



So I guess that, in the light of the immensely summarized points above, tech advancement is still possible, but by the same order of magnitude of possible that pink gerbils will explode out of White-Gold tower, feast on the flesh of the living, and then poop out white lilies. Can I give you a definitive argument for why it's never going to happen it TES? No. But should I still consider it possible in any context of plausibility? Not really.

I get that you're on the same end-result page in terms of what you actually want in the game, and that you're only arguing for the theoretical, but there's been 3 to 4 years-worth of tech debates in TES General. Virtually anything that can be said in defense of it has been addressed and objected to, somewhere down the line. Doesn't help that virtually all those threads are culled. <_<