For starters, the Imperial City is a large hub of commerce. Skingrad has several industries, such as wines, cheeses, and breads. Anvil is a seaport, bringing in merchant ships. Kvatch had an arena. Leyawiin had the Blackwood Company Hall. Bruma probably relies on hunting.


They were only actually shown to be contrasting at the end of the 2nd Era. I suspect that it is result of the lack of unity between the times of the Reman and Septim Empires. Being humans, they can change a lot more over the centuries of Imperial Rule than the Dunmer.


We don't know what has been going on with the Elder Council. However, it probably helps that the Chancellor is also the Imperial Battlemage.

Doesn't change the fact Cyrodiil has little to no cultural presentation in Oblivion (especially in comparison to Morrowind, which if you hadn't guessed by now, is the main reason this is infuriating). Or how we're expected to interpret the Nine Divines as "good," when we are given no reason why we should choose them over Daedra.

So I take it I should be afraid that Leyawiin will soon be deserted now that the Blackwood company is destroyed, there is no more money to be made.

That however is completely cartoonish. Eight cities with eight industries, eight divines, eight guild halls with architecture from the eight surrounding provinces. It doesn't form a coherent world but makes them eight isolated bubbles.

It would have made sense if those were the eight districts of the Imperial city because people with similair trades like to bunch up in cities, but each city has it's needs and going all the way to Kvatch because you want some entertainment is a bit silly.

Now I see that you haven't commented on my other questions, so can I take that as a begrudging acceptance that Oblivions depictions of Cyrodiil is lacking here?



Those differences go all the way back to the start of the Empire because the Nibense were much more isolated by the jungle and thus more entangled with the old Elven goverment structures. The Colovians on the other hand were in close contact with the Nords. These differences survived for almost 4000 years, or rather those 4000 years in relative isolation by the jungle created two different peoples.

Now this isn't something that goes away in only 400 years. If you want a real world example. Try Jerusalem. The people there were living in the same city and they didn't magically become Jerusalemites over the course of several years hundred years. Quite the opposite in fact.

Or an even better example would be Turkey. Attaturk forced a whole nation to westernize themselves and it worked for a fraction in the cities but the majority in country side remains staunchly old fashioned and are slowly rolling back these changes when it comes to religion and culture.



It isn't a big secret that Ocato is the Imperial Battlemage. So any one ambitious and intelligent enough to want to be the Emperor will account for that and take appropriate precautions. While we don't know but the devs have the freedom to make it so.

Which I reckon is the problem with your line of arguing. You are trying to defend Oblivion against suggestions what Oblivion should have been by examples from what Oblivion is. Which is somewhat like arguing against the demolition of a house to build a new one because there isn't enough space to build one.

No matter what the Darkbrotherhood quests in Oblivion showed, there still are competent assassins in Tamriel.

Actually, Oblivion has a lot of "INFOGENERAL" or "Rumours" about the difference between Colovians and Nibeneans. Apart from this, it is never shown in any way. Not in architecture, not in names, behaviour, culture, or anything.

That's becuase the Elder Council doesn't exist in the version of Cyrodiil you argue for.

Speaking of stuff you hardly encounter in the game, found some funny idles:

Oviparous. Ovovivparous. What's the difference? We are born and we die.

I long for a Colovian Fur Helm.

So I said. Where's the money in that?

Hairballs attacking me. They were everywhere. It was the strangest dream.

Goblins and rats. Seems like they're everywhere. I'm just waiting for the giant spiders to show up.

/tangent

And you only hear it from people encountered in wilderness locations (who are not Imperial Legion soldiers).

Each of the two cultures has several unique architectures. As for culture, Morrowind didn't have that much either, just a few generic greetings, town descriptions, and rumors. Just like in Oblivion.


The Imperial City's trade industry is anything but a "bubble"; it's a very important trading and commerce center. Being in the center of the Empire, there's a lot of trade going through it. And it's not like Tel Mora or Dagon Fel had much of an industry aside from some local fishing. Sure, Gnaar Mok and Hla Oad had a smuggling industry, but then again, so did Bravil and Cheydinhal.

And acting like Morrowind did culture so much better is a bit silly. They just stood around doing nothing, and the only real culture-defining behavior, namely greetings, rumors, and town descriptions, were all carried over to Oblivion.

No, I simply lost track of your other questions.


On the other side of the spectrum, things have radically changed in 400 years, especially after the jungles went poof. For example, a group of colonies broke away from the British Empire, spread to the west coast of the New World, split into two halves, fought, and were re-united. And don't get me started about the last 100 years. Granted, it still contains many very diverse cultures, but they evolved over a few centuries.

And it's still a game; it won't be able to perfectly depict cultire. Morrowind didn't depict culture that great either, except for the Ashlanders, who have different dialogue for just about everything. All the rest of the people had were a few different generic greetings and rumors. There was politics, but given that five great houses have been fighting for dominance for millennia, Cyrodiil doesn't have that sort of thing.


At least I don't claim to know or determine what it should have been. Bethesda made this game, not you or me. It's their property.


Even the Mythic Dawn learned that they had limits; otherwise they wouldn't have used two Siege Crawlers and a horde of Daedra for the effort of killing one man.

Edit: Changed a part to keep it somewhat civil.

When the heart of the Empire has as much trading going on as it's backwaters. That's not normal to say the least. Thank you!



So what are you waiting for? Show me the difference in attitude between the Colovian and Nibenian mothers to the death of their sons in the legion. Show me the people who hate others not because of their own opinions but because their parents told them so. Show me the politicians. Show me the gangs that vie for control over the areas of the town while maintaining law and order in it. Show me the priests, show me the temples. Show me their rituals. Show the me the origins of their brews, not merely the generic whines whines and ales. Show me the common history of Kvatch, Skingrad and Anvil. Show me something other then water ways devoid of original life. Show me the creatures from Cyrodiils wilderness. Show me the merchants in the city, those who sell nothing of interest to adventures but still need rats to be killed.



You seem to forget that Tamriel is on a technological level somewhere between the year zero and 1400 as most fantasy games. With a distinct lack of gunpowder and other inventions that made the events of the last 100 years possible. Neither is Cyrodiil a melting pot with no strong dominant culture of it's own.



Do you see me asking for perfection? It would be nice if they attained it but I'm asking for an interesting world. Not something that is concocted by applying the same idea eight times over. Not something that shows just about everything I can find in a 300 mile radius of my current location. After all, games are a form of escapism and I really want to escape the doe eyed deers, wolves and goblins. Not just those around me, but also those in every other generic RPG.



The land of Happiness and Harmony doesn't, Cyrodiil does because real people inhabit it.



Bethesda also wrote the first Pocket Guide to the Empire. Besthada made Morrowind. Bethesda made Daggerfall. As a customer is it to much to ask that they maintain the quality and consistency of their world building? It is what sets them apart from everybody else. So is it that offensive to call them out on a botched up job?

That all doesn't change the argument though. You can't defend the Land of Sunshine and Harmony against the real Cyrodiil by claiming that things are different in the land of Sunshine and Harmony.



Killing a man who can reload when he dies is a rather futile effort. You know that. Which is also the reason that he will be the man to kill Ocato in the quest line about the hypothetical Julius Caesar from Colovia. Ocato being a man who knows when his time has come will of course sag down on his knees and await execution. It's always best to surrender with your dignity intact.

And you actually think that Cyrodiil, whose mines seem to have dried up for the most part, and is the heart of the Empire, is actually supposed to have as much industry as Morrowind, a province taken over just because of its vast stores of ebony? An empire doesn't need to produce all of its wealth at the heartland.



Show me where all of that was in Morrowind. And of that which actually is, I'll show you where it is in Oblivion.


First of all, they have enough knowledge of Dwemer tech to repair and reactivate the Orrery. Second, Frostcrag Spirenot only shows off some impressive magic, but some impressive mechanics. And being a game, defining culture is not a priority.


I found it interesting and different enough for my tastes. Granted, I see it as more of an escapism from the real world, as opposed to "generic RPG's". At least they improved the mechanics.


They also said that Cyrodiil had no native race and made most of Daggerfall's world randomly-generated. And they made all of Morrowind's citizens stand around and do whatever they're doing all hours of the day. And I will have to respectfully disagree that they did not maintain the quality of their world building. And it's not like Daggerfall was some alien world dominated by oversized bugs and two-legged reptiles.


What we got is the real Cyrodiil; people just can't accept that.


Now you're just being silly.

It's pretty obvious that we're not going to agree on this at all. as our views on Oblivion are fundamentally different and incompatable.


Go back and play Morrowind; the only actual cultures they defined were the Ashlanders and the Skaal. As for the nine, there was a reason; the Daedra typically aren't very nice, even to their worshippers.

That's interesting. I recall you pointing to the success of the Mythic Dawn in killing Septim and his heirs as proof that Talos could have used thousands of hired assassins to simultaneously exterminate every neutral noble family on the continent without repercussions, rather than using Numidium. I apologize for the gotcha politics style of this post, but since you are now farther out there then our president, similar tactics are useful.

Not perfectly, of course, but there's a very noticeable difference in how Morrowind and Oblivion presented the game world.

Then let me explain; the Mythic Dawn were very effective at first, because they could appear as unarmed commoners. After the initial wave of assassinations, things got different because the Blades caught on to their tactics. It would have worked for simultaneous asssassinations, but after that, they'll eventually catch on. But at the same time, the Morag Tong had significant success in killing royalty during the Second Era and the end of the First Era.

It's actually pretty flattering that somebody's going through so much trouble to try to catch me in something like that.

But the center of the Empire should have the most riches. I didn't see overwhelming riches in Cyrodiil, nor the IC. I didn't even see an Imperial Palace. I just saw the White-Gold with a couple of rooms open, and a more than embarrassing round-table. At least Ebonheart had a room where representatives and councilors stood around. So, the AI confined them to walking around a few steps. They're still there. Otherwise, I saw shot leveled lists, but I'm not going to use that as some sort of economic levy.

Funny that you should mention the leveled lists, because I actually find them pretty relevant. Being the center of the Empire, and with Uriel Septim having claimed ownership of all raw ebony, glass, and Dwemer artifacts, they'd be bringing in a lot of wealth from Morrowind, hence ending up with vast amounts of dwarven, ebony, and glass items. At the same time, there are a lot of mines in Cyrodiil, but they've mostly dried up.

It's because it was me you were vomiting vowels on. I normally forget inanity as soon as it passes, but I remembered that particular spate. You can be flattered if you want to be.

And hundreds of groups of generic bandits just so happened to have acquired vast amounts of these expensive imports?

And what about all the brigands and non-Daedra enemies sporting full sets of Daedric? Are Dremora so easily killed that any random leveled bandits can acquire Daedric ? I don't think so. The leveled lists are shot, and it's embarrassing that you're trying to justify it through Uriel Septim.

Open your eyes, the Dremora aren't much tougher, if tougher at all, than any other NPC enemy. As for bandits, smuggling was always a huge industry in TES III, and there's nothing wrong with it in TES IV.

I won't deny that the leveling lists are flawed, but smugglers have been getting their hands onto some pretty valuable items for years now.

Given the devastating decline on mercantile shipping and the complete closure of all mountain passes by seismic events, the only way for merchants in the provinces to get their goods to Cyrodiilic markets is through selling them to criminals. As the myriad cave systems of the region clearly, show, these bandits possess the only practical routes for the movements of goods over the mountains. Since the forward progress of the player requires time, your rise through the levels is tied to the rising levels of hysteria at the death of Emperor in the provinces. Given a few weeks, the amount of armaments reaching the region increases exponentially. The merchants know that war is coming once the Mythic Dawn strikes, and seek to benefit from the ballooning demand for the implements of armed conflict.

Now that I have answered this question so completely, backed up by unshakable logic and clear-as-day observation of events in the game's objective code, I shall go purge the idiocy from my cerebellum.

Sadly, most of that explanation works for smuggler loot in TES III as well.

Which is wrong. As Dremora are immortal war spirits, and bandits are just bandits, not trained knights or crusaders.



In Vvardenfell, indeed. A newly colonized, backwater, rural setting. I wouldn't expect such level of piracy in the Imperial Center. And if it is, then that's a bad sign of Imperial primacy in their own province. I mean, something's wrong there.

I dunno, those Churls and Catiffs were pretty pathetic.

No it doesn't.

If you change it from "seismic activity" to "tidal activity" and the part about the Emperor's impending death to his current sickness and the state of the Empire, it'd explain how the smugglers in Morrowind have so many high-level scrolls, Grand Soul Gems, armor, weapons, potions, and enchanted items.

But this is all off-topic. Heck, I don't think this thread has been on-topic since page 1.

The Morrowind situation is much more dependent on the regional politics and religious situation. Sixth House, House Hlaalu, and other rogue retainers. Contrast that to most of Cyrodill bandits and smugglers who seem to all subscribe to simply "evil."