Ten Divines? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Mon May 16, 2011 3:38 am

Could Martin become one of the Divines and join his ancestor, Tiber Septim, in... where ever it is that the gods live? Does his breaking the Amulet of Kings and becoming an avatar of Akatosh count as mantling? Or is his act great enough to achieve apotheosis?
Could there be 10 Divines in Skyrim?

» Sun May 15, 2011 6:01 pm

Its really The Eight (aedra) and One (Tiber), i always figured Nine Divine was just lazy/slang for the collect as Tibers not an Aedra. Idt smashing the amulet counts as mateling, because idt Martin mimiced or acted like Lorkhan or anyone else. id say its safe to say hes just dead.

The Nine pantheon is really a mix of merish and nord religious beliefs, the nords have their wn pantheon so youd likely see a focus on their view of religion rather than the Imperial brand, especially now the Septim Empire has fallen.

» Mon May 16, 2011 3:14 am

It depends on how you see the entire "nine" thing. They are infact 8 Aedra and Tiber Septim. The nine divines are only named by the people on Tamriel, I doubt it gives them any real power. The Imperials might worship martin as a divine ( which I highly doubt ) But it doesn't make him an Aedra.

Though I think there is a serious chance that he's a saint now.

» Mon May 16, 2011 6:00 am

Very unlikely. I don't think what Martin did counts as mantling, as Lord Tidus said, because he did not mantle Akatosh or Lorkhan or anything like that. I felt it was more sacrificing himself to summon the power of Akatosh, who took Martin's form and, as payment for his help, turned him to stone.

It wasn't Martin's divinity or anything like that, it was Akatosh's.

» Sun May 15, 2011 9:47 pm

Why wouldn't people worship him? Tiber Septim was worshiped and his achievements were (arguably) lesser. What's uniting a continent for the first time compared to saving the world from a four armed freak wielding huge axes? Basically TES' equivalent to Satan?

Its really The Eight (aedra) and One (Tiber),

I know. Eight Aedra, but Nine Divines. Being an Aedra doesn't necessarily mean that your a Divine. Who's to say I can't be the Eight and Two?

The Nine pantheon is really a mix of merish and nord religious beliefs, the nords have their wn pantheon so youd likely see a focus on their view of religion rather than the Imperial brand,
especially now the Septim Empire has fallen.

Well, some of the Imperials probably continued to worship the Nine Divines, just because an empire falls doesn't mean it's religion falls with it. See the Roman Empire and the British Empire for an example.

» Mon May 16, 2011 5:49 am

Martin has mantled Akatosh. He is now Akatosh, and Akatosh could have changed, to accomodate Martin. Aka is still worshiped as he had been, but, clearly, the new barriers and his apotheosis, were signs of Aka's own change. That's still 9 Divines.

» Sun May 15, 2011 6:49 pm

Why wouldn't people worship him? Tiber Septim was worshiped and his achievements were (arguably) lesser. What's uniting a continent for the first time compared to saving the world from a four armed freak wielding huge axes? Basically TES' equivalent to Satan?

It's uniting a continent in a way parallel to Lorkhan uniting the Aedra. It's about bringing everyone together, not about personal achievements.

Martin would be a hero, no doubt, and maybe even worshiped as an ancestral hero, but he's not a divine.

» Mon May 16, 2011 8:28 am

It's uniting a continent in a way parallel to Lorkhan uniting the Aedra. It's about bringing everyone together, not about personal achievements.

Martin would be a hero, no doubt, and maybe even worshiped as an ancestral hero, but he's not a divine.

Well, using that logic, doesn't Martin defeating Dagon parallel this from A Children's Anuad:

"Anu returned, fought Padomay, and cast him outside Time."

Martin returned, fought Dagon and cast him out of Mundus.

I never said that Martin is a God. I asked if it is possible. I think the answer is, technically, yes, if Hoon Ding is right.

» Mon May 16, 2011 9:25 am

Well, using that logic, doesn't Martin defeating Dagon parallel this from A Children's Anuad:

"Anu returned, fought Padomay, and cast him outside Time."

Martin returned, fought Dagon and cast him out of Mundus.

Returned from where? Time and Mundus also aren't the same thing. Plus Anu and Padomay are not gods, they are the concepts of what Is and what Is-Not, so mantling Anu would be like mantling everything in existence. A Children's Anuad is just that, a story for a child that anthropomorphizes Anu and Padomay to explain the creation of the universe.

» Mon May 16, 2011 9:17 am

It is said that Arkay did not exist before the world was created by the gods under Lorkhan's supervision/urging/trickery. Therefore, he is sometimes called the Mortals' God.

If Arkay is an apologist of Time, the Convention Time, anyway, and Martin's changed Time, so the old Covenant barriers are no longer needed, could we see old gods die, in Cyrodiil, like the Rainmaker had? Could the Wheel be missing a spoke or two? How many Dawn times have "tobr'a" gods fallen away? I used Arkay as an example, because, elsewhere in Tamriel, he is the Rainmaker: the needs of the people change, and those that provide guidance to them must also change.

Edit: So, gods can be lost (and added, too). Who's to say there weren't 1008 Divines, in one, lost world?

» Mon May 16, 2011 1:50 am

Returned from where? Time and Mundus also aren't the same thing. Plus Anu and Padomay are not gods, they are the concepts of what Is and what Is-Not, so mantling Anu would be like mantling everything in existence. A Children's Anuad is just that, a story for a child that anthropomorphizes Anu and Padomay to explain the creation of the universe.

Well, Martin was technically exiled from the Palace. That's the most appropriate word to describe what happened to him.
I know Time and Mundus aren't the same, I didn't say they were.

The Aedra and Tamriel aren't the same thing either. :rolleyes:

The whole point of my last comment was to say that "uniting a continent in a way parallel to Lorkhan uniting the Aedra" and "bringing everyone together" doesn't mean a damn thing.

» Mon May 16, 2011 5:36 am

The whole point of my last comment was to say that "uniting a continent in a way parallel to Lorkhan uniting the Aedra" and "bringing everyone together" doesn't mean a damn thing.

Well, clearly it does since that's basically how Talos mantled Lorkhan and became a divine.

» Sun May 15, 2011 10:39 pm

It would be more interesting for me if people decided that Akatosh was the only divine they felt they needed to respect because he came and fought for them, where the others didn't.

Also it would go a lot farther to help the cult of Martin if someone other than the player had seen him transform. It would make it an easier sell anyway.

» Mon May 16, 2011 12:06 am

I just don't think Martin ascended into Godhood, and all Martin did was smash the Amulet, it was Akatosh who defeated Dagon, not Martin, he was merely a middleman.

» Sun May 15, 2011 8:53 pm

I just don't think Martin ascended into Godhood

That GameInformer wall decryption confirmed his apotheosis wasn't fanterpretation. GI wouldn't say he took the mantle of a god, without having Bethesda's word.

» Mon May 16, 2011 5:48 am

Say what now? Got a refrence/pic of that being decrypted? I don't know your refrence

» Mon May 16, 2011 1:27 am

I referenced the wrong article, but you only need to do search for "Martin," "apotheosis," and "Game Informer," to find what I'm talking about.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/gameinformer-decrypting-elder-scrolls

http://www.gameinformer.com/p/skyrim_wall.aspx is the "wall" I was talking about.*

* What a joke: learn what the hero of Skyrim, the Dragonborn, will be forced to uncover as he examines it for clues

» Sun May 15, 2011 11:49 pm

Plus Anu and Padomay are not gods, they are the concepts of what Is and what Is-Not, so mantling Anu would be like mantling everything in existence.

Isn't that CHIM?

» Sun May 15, 2011 7:49 pm

Eh, to clarify what Velorien just said, being Anu would be like being 1, I AM, infinitiy, etc. With Padomay, 0, I AM NOT, zero, etc. In essence, the one half of the polar opposite, not the whole. The Godhead is the whole, but the Godhead is extremely fragmented right now. And by extremely, I mean X-TREME extremely fragmented.

» Mon May 16, 2011 10:30 am

Eh, to clarify what Velorien just said, being Anu would be like being 1, I AM, infinitiy, etc. With Padomay, 0, I AM NOT, zero, etc. In essence, the one half of the polar opposite, not the whole. The Godhead is the whole, but the Godhead is extremely fragmented right now. And by extremely, I mean X-TREME extremely fragmented.

Well, yes. Residents of TES call this "reality."

» Mon May 16, 2011 12:53 pm

I referenced the wrong article, but you only need to do search for "Martin," "apotheosis," and "Game Informer," to find what I'm talking about.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/gameinformer-decrypting-elder-scrolls

http://www.gameinformer.com/p/skyrim_wall.aspx is the "wall" I was talking about.*

* What a joke: learn what the hero of Skyrim, the Dragonborn, will be forced to uncover as he examines it for clues

I am hesitant to look to gameinformer for lore info. If something comes up in Skyrim that leads me to believe this that's different but a glorified press release to drum up interest doesn't really strike me as the most legitimate source.

» Mon May 16, 2011 5:16 am

I am hesitant to look to gameinformer for lore info.

Senior designer Kurt Kuhlmann walked us through the installments and how each connects to the next.

Read the article, son.

» Mon May 16, 2011 5:27 am

Senior designer Kurt Kuhlmann walked us through the installments and how each connects to the next.

Read the article, son.

Assuming the vocabulary used in a article aimed at the uninitiated applies to the concepts discussed in this forum would be a mistake. I remember when those types of articles prior to the release of Oblivion equated Oblivion it self to hell.

» Mon May 16, 2011 11:33 am

if you were to take everything in an interview as 100% correct then you aught to believe every interview from every politician, its not official lore yet and his off remarks to a magazine doesnt necisarilly mean thats how its going to be potrayed.

So until theres an official YES to it, its up for speculation, though to answer the ops question yes it does leave open the possibility.

» Mon May 16, 2011 1:33 am

I know I heard it before, but could someone remind me why Kynareth doesn't count?