I totally agree. These situations make us naturally angry. But, passion and demagoguery won't get us anywhere. We're not doing our posterity a service other than to satiate a desire for revenge.

Suit yourself. When [censored] hits the fan guess what I'll be doing to protect myself and my wife? Well, I'll assure you, we won't be pissing and moaning about our "civil liberties", and woe is me. No, I'll be doing the intelligent and self preserving thing - staying safe.

They want them to "come home" and join their cause. Creating hatred toward Muslims actually does help them, IMO. It pushes more Muslims to hate the non-Muslims that hate them.

...and in the meantime these people become stronger and more difficult to deal with later, when the world will inevitably have to deal with them. I know that it seems like the smart thing to do on the surface, but it's really not. It's giving them what they want. The actual likelihood of you or your wife being injured or killed in a terrorist attack is minuscule. Any safety you'd get by giving them what they want is going to be temporary. What they're really trying to do is spread fear, and it's working.

The only way to end this madness is to basically go all out on both the terrorist as well as those who support them even if those who support them are Sovereign nations.

End? It's just humans doing what they always done. Killing in the name of whatever.

There's only one way to end this, but no one would be around to enjoy it.

Well, like Al Qaeda before them, soon ISIS will piss off someone they can't fight. Would hate to see what would happen if this had happened in Russia

The only way to end this madness is for America to wake up and stop being so damned politically correct and to realize Islam is not a peaceful religion. Anyone who can read needs to pick up their holy book and read it. It'll tell you how to slaughter those who don't believe in Allah. Good God just open your eyes.

he who sacrifices liberty for security deserves neither ~Benjamin Franklin~

tragic though this is, it should not be an excuse to slowly chip away a common citizen's personal rights. This is exactly what the terrorists want. This fear of attacks plays right into the hands of fanatical leaders in our own borders, and only makes the work of groups like Isis that much more potent because it only proves their warped point.

I'm not some hardcoe, far-left hippie, but I do believe that liberty, no matter the situation, should ultimately trump some monolithic attempt at security by a big- brother esque government. Here's a better idea: empower the people to protect themselves. That's one of the reasons, at least in the US, that the 2nd Amendment exists.

False. It's certain leaders within certain Muslim communities that are inciting attacks in the name of religion to further a political agenda. Again, you're not looking past the surface of the issue. It has nothing to do with Islam. That's just the mechanism through which they're instilling fanatical loyalty in their pawns. Read about what's happening inside places like Afghanistan. Taliban fighters are being isolated from global media, and they're being told by their leaders that the reason for the U.S. troop presence there is to kill Muslims...that's all. Just to kill Muslims. Of course they're attacking us. Many of them think they're defending themselves and their families. Sound familiar?

OK, this is heading down the religious/political road. Please stay away from those otherwise the topic will be closed.

Thanks guys.

There's a difference between shutting down borders completely, and having a secure border and vetting who comes in.


The fact of the matter is many of these countries have let their borders open and insecure too long.

No go zones have existed in many European countries for a decade. Police don't go there, sharia law exists in those places, and the common thing among all these no go zones is the Muslim population.

Now I'm not blaming the Muslim religion for this, it's the sharia law (which targets Muslim people), which isn't actually part of the religion.


But also out of all religions, which one has people riot and attack places when their prophet is made fun of on tv and won't be put on the air if they show a picture of him? It's not Buddhism, it's not Mormons, it's not Christianity. All those religions are free game to be made fun of, But don't worry, it's a religion of peace that threatens people inti submission.


It's a culture war, the leaders want to destroy western culture and set up their caliphate. They know how people are gonna react, they know how pc people are and that the people are gonna side with the perps.

" It's western civilization's fault, let's ignore these current deaths and focus on the backlash immigrants might possibly get from evil racists! These terrorists were just feeling left out!".


They know the social justice apologists are out there, they know they're gonna advocate against increased border security in the name of being nice, they know these people think appeasing your enemies makes them your friends.


The ends they achieve is people keep allowing these people to invade (which it is an invasion) and people don't wake up til it's too late. Paris, Belgium, Sweden germany, these countries have had these no go zones for years and have been warned this will happen, but they keep appeasing their enemies, and lo and behold, the terrorists are operating from these no go zones.


Just wait, Sweden and Germany are next, those no go zones are getting out of control.

My personal opinion has been for some time now that Schengen must go. Because screw the Dublin agreement, they'll just keep going on through and you can't manage them because of Schengen.

But that isn't here nor there.

I'm so angry about this it's ridiculous.

It's common knowledge who's responsible for creating the problem, I'm not going into it here.

Can we please leave the religion argument out of it?

I prefer if the mods don't have to lock stuff.

There's a few causes to the problem, but right now you need symptom management. Closing the border helps control the problem while you figure out how to eradicate it.

And I don't advocate completely sealing it off. I *do* advocate border checks.

This. SO much this.

Some countries are already losing their identity.

Not to get into specifics, but some politicians in Sweden already said that Sweden has no culture. That the country belongs to the immigrants. Talk like that disgusts me. Europe is a collective of different cultures and creeds. It what makes Europe... Europe. Sweden *does* have culture, and preserving it should be a priority. That also made me so angry....

Again, can we please keep the religion bashing out of here?

Code of Conduct and all.

You beat me to it.

A little political discourse is natural in a topic like this, but there's absolutely no reason to be on the religion bashing nor getting into anything specific politically.

I agree. My issue is that some of the suggestions I'm seeing for managing these symptoms could actually quagmire the a long-term solution.

Border security is ok. Laying the blame at the feet of all Muslims is not. That's just going to help these people accomplish their goal of unifying all Muslims under their Caliphate. The more hatred we direct at Muslims that aren't yet involved in the conflict, the more we help them to accomplish this goal. You do realize that there are about 1.6 billion Muslims on this planet, right?

More than anything, I just don't want to see these people get what they want. So far, a lot of people seem to be giving into fear and letting them have exactly what they're trying to accomplish.

It'll never end. Even if you kill all the terrorists, more sprout up to fight for their absurd ideals. Even if the people in the areas where these ideals originate start fighting for their homes instead of fleeing and stand up to the terrorists, they can just as easily go underground (figuratively and literally) and use this lovely internet that we have and recruit more to their cause. It's a symptom of the modern world, the free and rapid exchange of ideas both good and bad. My condolences, such as they are, to those who suffer because of these monstrous acts.

Just heard about it, 30 people dead.

rip

ISIS .. stuck in the 7th century ..

A former co-worker of mine was at the airport when it happened. He's ok but I'm sure a bit rattled. Probably be a few days before he can get home.

1. Full Scale Retaliation is not the answer. "Wiping out those savages," hasn't exactly done the world good for the past 20+ years, now has it?


2. Maybe people who want to bash a group's source material should actually read ALL of said source material objectively, instead of cherry picking little parts here and there they probably found on the internet.


3. These extremists do what they do because they hop onto a cause that target's a group of people, who they have demonized because of the actions of a minority in that group.

Maybe you people pulling out your pitchforks and torches should consider number 3 before running your mouths, and take a look at history.

And that I suppose is why you reached Grandmaster....

Not a damn thing in that post is wrong.

Well done

(and I would add you know playing Kingmaker has never really worked for the U.S, at least how we wanted it to.... might be time to stop trying...... Well I would say that, but thats just me and in no way links to the above great post)

No, it will never end.

So long as Man has free will, it will never end.

So long as Man has freedom of thought, it will never end.

Until we're all mindless drones in a hive mind, someone, somewhere, is going to get a delusion in their head that their way is the Supreme and Most Awesome Way ever and that everyone that doesn't follow it needs punished.

It's human nature. We're a predatory species.

Yep, tribe mentality is programmed into our DNA. We like to group up and compete with other groups for resources and influence. The only thing that really changes is how we decide who belongs to which tribe. It wasn't very long ago that this was a useful adaptation. Maybe in another hundred thousand years we'll evolve past it.

They're cowards who prey upon the weak because they can't stand against the strong.

Panic and paranoia are powerful tools to those in power.

Yep.

The only thing we can do is keep striving toward a global society based on respect and cooperation and push for education in all corners of the world. Even still some will reject it and act out violently, but hopefully a day will dawn when we can use our combined intelligence to solve problems instead of finding ways to kill each other.

Who's giving into fear more, the people who are reacting to actual terrorists attacks that have killed actual innocent people, or the people who are literally "fearing" (in the words of a previous poster here I quoted in my first post) the theoretical backlash to innocent immigrants.


On one hand, you have people fearing a tangible threat that exists, and the other you have people fearing the theoretical racist whiteys that might go beat up innocents. They are both fear mongering, yes, but one is fear mongering a boogeyman while the other is fear mongering an existent violent group of people (no I don't mean the religion, but the sharia people, like Isis and their sympathizers who put fatwas on the head of people who speak out against them)


At least the things I'm fear mongering can be combatted, there are solutions, like not letting in every single immigrant without any sort of background check or not letting these no go zones exist in the first place by not appeasing to their bully tactics for fear of being labeled a racist and appeasing the enemy (that's pretty much why these no go zones even came to fruitation in the first place and why the governments never cracked down on them).

These aren't 100% effective solutions, but they are better than doing nothing, leaving borders wide open and letting a minority bully group of people dictate the rules of a government (many of these no go zones are illegal or breaking laws of the land by existing in the first place and not allowing certain people through them).


At least north America has oceans separating these groups so they can't just walk in, but many of these European countries have been free game for these terrorists for awhile.

It depends on the individual and the reasons for their actions, I guess. Personally, I fear the long-term effects of providing the enemy their desired reaction to the attacks more than I fear the actual attacks. Again, the purpose of terrorism isn't to kill people...it's to get the desired reaction to killing people. When we react to the attacks the way they expect/want us to, we're sending them a message that the attacks accomplished their purpose.

Personally, I fear neither. I fear that we will lose the part of ourselves that makes us better than the terrorists. I also fear that by reacting to attacks in extreme ways, it's likely that we're giving the terrorists what they want in the process. We aren't going to like the results of giving them what they want.

Honestly, do you think that their endgame is killing handfuls of civilians here and there? That's going to get them nowhere. The attacks are just small pieces of a greater goal. They don't care about attacking us directly at this point. They're trying to scare us into staying out of their way.

I agree that we should be more strict about who crosses borders. That said, it can reach a point that we cripple ourselves (economically and otherwise) in our rush to calm our fears of more attacks. If I were a terrorist, I would find that hilarious and emboldening.

I think that part of the disconnect here is that there's a genuine danger that extreme measures to prevent more attacks might actually be appeasing the enemy. Again, the purpose of the attacks is to force a reaction. They actually want us to hate and distrust Muslims. It's part of their agenda. If they can drive a wedge between non-radical Muslims and the rest of the world, it's going to be a heck of a lot easier for them to convince those people to fall in line under their Caliphate.

Falling over ourselves to take extreme measures and change our internal policies in order to hide from terrorism feels a lot like letting ourselves be bullied to me. I guarantee that the terrorists see it that way too.

Look, I get what you're saying, and to some extent I agree. I think that somewhere in between the apologists and the folks that are filled with hatred and paranoia there's some middle ground to be found. It's possible to be vigilant, rational, and compassionate all at the same time. The worst thing we can do at this point is to react emotionally rather than rationally.

Without going into detail so I don't step my foot in a pile of crap I'd rather not set my boot in, I'll just say this. I'm pretty disgusted by a lot of the reaction I've seen of my fellow countrymen, but considering, without naming names, one of the primary forerunners in our Presidential Race is a xenophobe, I am not surprised, but still disgusted. pick up with one of the few rational comments in this thread:

You get it. I believe some people are being far too apologetic and far too bigoted. I am sympathetic to the men and women who were hurt and killed by these terrorists today and I am sympathetic for true Muslims who have their name dragged through the dirt by falsely religious violent monsters. I am concerned for a possible attack on America but I still believe closing our borders to a people fleeing their homeland that's in the middle of a multi-faceted war is not the answer. If we start cracking down on Muslims in the US as some in the GOP have suggested, it'd be the Japanese who were here and loved this country as much as a white or black American, even first generation Japanese-Americans. It didn't matter to the bigots then just like Jews didn't matter to the Germans in power then. But we have the mistakes and horrors of both sides to learn from and the damage it did, we have a chance to be vigilant and welcoming and to learn from the mistakes of our ancestors, unless we are going to ignore history and just repeat the vicious cycle.