Hi guys its my first post after few weeks of reading topics using my cellphone(Nexus S by the way).

I understand there are lots of speculations and guesses, wish-lists perhaps in the forum due to lack of any game experience whatsoever. One thing I've noticed most is people's opinions on how much Skyrim would be different compared to previous series. I've seen many tedious posting in this issue, and equally tedious debates as well Never got to know so many diehard fans devoted to how Skyrim SHOULD be, instead of what Skyrim actually is.

Then I got this thought: what would developers think of all these debates and concerns? Surely they care, but how would they react? What would they do in developer's point of view? in sales manager's point of view?

Bethesda, as far as I'm concerned, cares about making a good game, not just a game that would sell. However what is 'good'? I'm sure everyone in this forum agrees people can easily disagree on any definition to 'good game'. Thus logical solution for Bethesda would be to make a game that largely falls in the category of 'satisfactory' to the largest number of people. Some in this group would think Skyrim rocks, some would say it's ok but could be better.

If this is what Bethesda is trying to do, how would they react to a spectrum of TES afficionados and potential new consumers? This is putting things very simple, but I've seen lots of 'whining' in this forum, saying Skyrim doesn't have this, they've deleted that, this new thing won't work and so on. If this forum DOES have certain influence to the developers and/or sales managers and they're trying to maximize the pool of people who accepts their 5th installment of TES legacy as 'satisfactory', and if I were one of them I would certainly gauge how easy/difficult it is to satisfy different groups of people in the entire spectrum of consumers.

Let's say at the very left of the spectrum are reserved for fans who love RPG elements of TES. They are immensely sensitive to changes in lore, variety of character creation, game system that can enhances RPing purpose... At the very right are those more concerned with action elements of TES. They think Skyrim should introduce more life-like and smooth animations, more combat options such as new maginc effects or new blocking system and such. From what I have seen this forum has vast supply of both of these groups, and less prominent group of people who falls somewhere in between like me. I love TES's RPG setting and its way of describing my character, but I also think there should be improvement in action too. Personally I think I played melee or ranged based character more than magic based ones because I wasn't much fond of hurling different colored spheres at my enemies all the time.

My conlcusion? More whining means that group is more difficult to satisfy, thus Bethesda would rather employ their limited resources to strengthen elements that can appeal more easily to less 'restless' fans and potential consumers. Since I wasn't much of a fervent participant in Bethesda forums before now I have no idea which type of 'whining' were in the upper hand until now. Anyway I guess all this falls within the grand design of 'appealing to the mass' thing. I don't know if this will make Skyrim less of a masterpiece than Oblivion or Morrowind(which I have played) but I'll be damned if Skyrim sells less than Oblivion or Morrowind cause that's what Bethesda is(and I think should for their own sake) trying to do.

Action.

I think Beth screwed the pooch on finishers, and I was expecting better melee combat.

I think Skyrim's RPG elements are satisfactory, at least. It's important to note that, I am not a RPG hound, and I'm not concerned with the RPG label. I don't care what makes a RPG and what doesn't.

It would have to be the top two...

In this day and age, can't I have both action & RPG elements combined?

its been ages since i have not played TES and im not sure about what perks/skills are in SR but certain action elements like sunder armor, whirlwind, reposte, shield bash are cool and dont away from the rpg core elements. Dont get me wrong, i certainly dont want visuals, grunting, flips, puffs of smoke and other action oriented special effects that made DA2 a button smasher and ruined the game even more imo. Just better/improved melee combat because i think all the great rpg elements are already in SR.

Time will tell..

Where is the option for RPG elements like having actual freedom in how to approach quests (I mean how it turns out and not how I killed the objective), and the ability to interact with NPCs in a meaningful way instead of black & white cliches.

Can you name any games that have the right combination, if not then the answer appears to be no.

In order of worst to best

Morrowind
Oblivion
Fallout 3

And it's looking like Skyrim will take the lead.

Lucky me. :celebration:

Especially when looking at the development choices many series are making today. I am always puzzled when other posters claim something to the effect of "if you don't like the changes to Skyrim go play the horde of other open world fantasy RPG games available..." Okay, which ones now?

I've had Oblivion for about a year and played Morrowind on and off for seven years. I've enjoyed the slicker changes to Oblivion (combat, graphics) but for me those changes should only enhance my TES RPG opportunities, not replace them. I had this vain hope that once Beth had attracted their new fan base, they'd feel comfortable making a slick, but deeper RPG (...the often ridiculed Morrowind 2?) At the very least, their marketing suggests they feel otherwise.

Oh yeah, I picked numero uno.

I would like deeper rpg customization without sacrificing the action, I think it's viable.

I always had the feeling that TES have always been(yes even Oblivion) a RPG with action elements, rather than a real action rpg.
Also with the adding of perks and new leveling system I would say they have improved on the rpg elements(yes even with the removal of attributes). Also skill based and non-skill based crafting is also a + to the rpg elements.

I have to agree, even though Morrowind was my favorite of the three, save for the tremendously rewarding exploration, the gameplay itself doesn't engage you the same way as even Oblivion. Had the world not been one of the greatest realizations of fantasy lore in history, I don't think Morrowind would have been nearly as memorable. Unfortunately, Oblivion traded one for the other at a 1:1 ratio, so while the game was entertaining to actually play, I found myself wanting for lack of the rich world Morrowind had given. Fallout 3 gave us at least a portion of both worlds, and I feel it's Bethesda's second strongest title because of that.


Skyrim is looking to further both the action and the RPG. I don't understand a lot of the arguments against Skyrim's development system from a position citing any game but Daggerfall as a better example, Both Morrowind and Oblivion had nearly meaningless character development, each character may have taken different paths, but they all ended up the same place at the end, and that's just assuming you didn't try to cheat the system, which virtually everybody did. At least with the Skillperk Trees, a Warrior will be tangibly different than a Mage or Assassin.

I frequently find myself thinking, 'I haven't played a good (fantasy) RPG for a while', then I go looking for one and fail to find any that appeal. I think the unfortunate reality is that I've aged outside of the target market for the modern RPG, or to look at it another way my tastes have failed to adapt to the changes. Action seems to be a big selling point.

The consolation is that the Indie scene seems to be making a lot of interesting games that the AAA companies perhaps wouldn't want to risk.

RPG.

Everyone likes different gameplay, but the element I would most like strengthened would be the combat (action) and the difficulty settings.

I think the greatest melee combat system ever created was from Risen. Yes, there were some shortcomings, but I feel it was utterly superior to Oblivion's system.

If you've never played Risen: the melee combat system was pretty advanced comparatively. You couldn't just spam attack, you had to use blocks, parries, "power attacks," and dodges. The incoming damage could be brutal, making minimizing hits taken and managing consumables crucial.


Difficulty settings.... Something ought to be changed from the lazy damage taken/received scale from Oblivion. There are so many different options that the dev's could go with from spawning more mobs or higher level mobs to increasing the damage taken, (but not lowering the player damage dealt.) Ideally the solution would be a little bit of both... or something else creative I haven't thought.

I think the core of TES is immersion, and both these changes would definitely help.

Edit: On second thought... I think I may prefer more RPG. I can't think of more than handful of meaningful dialogue choices you could make. If it were my decision I'd probably scrap voice acting all together in favor for a significantly greater amount of dialogue options and responses. I wonder if people would generally prefer a hell of a lot more dialogue options vs voice acting?

Both, or neither. I liked Morrowind for it's RPG elements, but it lacked action wise, and vice versa for Oblivion.
I would love them to get the balance right, but I can't see it happening, so either is great.

I personally would put more item types as part of the action genre.... Look at COD Black Ops. Are you telling me that that is an RPG because it allows the player to choose between several different types of RPG?

As much as i love Morrowind( i mean it changed my entire gaming world) i don't see the trade off to Oblivion being 1:1. For me, pound for pound Oblivion delivered a greater action experience at only a slightly diminished RPG experience. But take into account that I don't view the scaling and spawning as an RPG element. Those are neutral element intended to tie the Action and the RPG together. It's failure to do so does not in anyway reduce the number of RPG elements present so Oblivion takes second place and though only by a narrow margin it was still a better marriage of the two genre's than Morrowind.

It's tough to move forward on the scale because Fallout was different from TES in so many ways that it had to be looked at with nothing to compare it to. I like sci-fi more than fantasy but i'm not a real big fan of shooters. FO3 made it fun and engaging though and was definitely another step forward even though it was on the other side of the street.

All this anolysis is really getting me pumped. Skyrim I believe will put them all to shame :twirl: I can't wait.

More like Oblivion, although I would love to have some Morrowind stuff in there as well (no fast travel, more varied atmospheres). People like to make fun of Oblivion because its the cool thing to do, but they forget how ridiculously universally praised it was, on every site, from nearly every gamer. Hell, PC Gamer listed it as the greatest game ever made, and I personally thing that (because of its mod community) it certainly deserves the title as the best pure RPG ever made. I don't want an overly simplistic, cliche storyline that was Morrowind: "You are a hero reincarnate, go destroy this evil god!" You call that a story? Kidding? Some people need to take the rose-colored glasses off when they make an "objective" review of Morrowind.

A long time ago, I thought about what would make the perfect TES game... I wanted:

Better, more engaging combat
More intuitive advancement system
Fallout's Perks
An option to play "Immersion Mode", where you can't save (so if you die, you die), you have to eat and drink, sleep, and no fast travel.

The first three are in it. Never know, maybe the last one might be implemented in some version in the future too Skyrim is shaping up to be a frighteningly awesome game.

That's the best idea i've read all day. hardcoe mode would make a kick ass dlc.

Part of the roleplaying experience of Morrowind was feeling like a part of the world. However, Oblivion's world building (mostly procedurally generated), as well as that god-awful level scaling mechanic turned the game into a formulaic experience. In Morrowind, there were [many] times where I actually felt like I was part of the world. I could exit Rethan manor and cruise the streets of Balmora as Hlaalu grandmaster, and actually picture to myself "These are my people", because how the game so effectively wove many detailed aspects of every day life into their game. Though the world was actually static, the details brought out a sense of life and believability that, by contrast, was totally missing in Oblivion. Oblivion felt, from the moment Uriel Septim VII spoke, to the last day I played it, a game through and through. Thoroughly entertaining, but I could never have that deep connection, because they sold the world short of the details that bind it together as an 'actual' place.

Fallout 3 recaptured that. Even though a lot of the details are sketchy at best (For example, there's no way the entirety of Megaon subsides off scavenged food or a single trader) it still effectively captured a sense of unity. The game set itself up so well too. Being a Vault-dweller, you grew up and knew pretty much what we as real humans know, and stepping out into the wasteland for the first time, you learn with your character. That creates an amazing and immersive connection. Learning the mundane little details of life in this stranger world was not unique to Fallout, but also part of the experience in Morrowind. Just like you learn the Caravan trade routes, and where to find clean(ish) water in Fallout, you learn about the Egg Mining operations, the oppressive imperial laws regarding trade, and all sorts of other details that help suspend disbelief. Even their Fast Travel system is explained as an every-day norm for the inhabitants, unlike Oblivion, where it's just a menu and "Poof".

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. My main point is, you need to look at RPG mechanics, particularly character development, beyond your own character. As Todd Howard says, the actual main character of all their games, is the world itself, and Oblivion[Cyrodiil] as a character, was poorly realized.

The top two.

I voted RPG because I really want to feel like what I do will be unique to every one else's game - I'd like to see different outcomes to situations, different item combinations, etc.
I want to be immersed in my own character's story, and not have to work my imagination too hard to feel as if I'm interacting with the world around him. I want my character to be unique to the rest of the gaming world, I don't want to have to make up something about him, as others do, that could never happen in-game as I bring him to the forums.

However, I also want to be immersed in my character through his animations - I want the game to flow so smoothly I don't find myself wondering about improvements that could be made as I look at animations and environment design.

RPG, to me Skyrim won't be an RPG(Same for Oblivion) They just seem like Action Adventure games with stats tacked on to me.
Now before you try to kill me with Internet fire, I'm not saying that means the game is bad, I'm saying it's not an RPG, no genre is better than the other but personally I'd like to see more RPG elements.

OB and SR will be no less an RPG than MW was. They are all cross genre games. They are all Action/RPG which by proxy makes them all RPGs.

Let me make an anology you might not agree with but should understand.

System of a Down. Most people classify this band as Alternative but it is in fact Alt/Metal. It's a cross genre band that by proxy IS Metal.

Thank you. I think this is the best way of summing up the difference between Morrowind and Oblivion I have seen so far on this site.