It seems to be that way. Aside from the Tribunal, who are three mortals who became gods and then turned mortal again, both the Aedra and Daedra are gods and are proven to exist. Aedra are apparently "Gods" while the Daedra are a pleasant mix of good and bad, and than Sithis would be "the devil"

Am I getting this right? Seems like if every god of every religion that people believe in is right... than what the hell is with all the fighting over religion.

I mean, my character in Morrowind killed two Tribunal, freed Julianos, and had a few nice little conversations with Azura and some of her friends. And my character in Oblivion had a little altercation with Mehrunes Dagon. So they're all quite real, really nothing left to faith.

Faith really doesn't pertain to the belief in your deity's existence, in TES, but rather faith in their capacity to help you. Dunmer had faith in Vivec's ability to gate off Red Mountain. His existence was a sure thing.

All of the gods worshiped in Nirn are verifiably real. The question isn't their existence but their ability/willingness to lend help to people and good causes.

Also note that beings who were gods but who lose a significant amount of worship may no longer be gods, or may lose significance/power, and other beings whom weren't always gods can become them. Faith and belief are a huge part of this. In Tamriel, the faith actually powers the being, and vice versa.

An example of what happens when a religion fails - the Tribunal lost a significant portion of their godhood when the Neravarine dispelled the enchantments on Shor's heart. However, a lot of their religion was founded on faith and love for the Tribunal, which enabled a part of their godhood and its powers to linger after said adventuring. This only held about 12 years or so, and when the people no longer had faith in Vivec, the last part of his godhood dissolved and a moon obliterated part of Morrowind. (This discounts the complicated theory of CHIM, which is irrelevant to the discussion)

Every single god has appeared on nirn personally, so you can bet your ass they are real. The only religion that is questionable is the Altmeri ansestor worship, along with that of the dunmer. The trubunal was false, they weren't divine to be specific: however they were still immortal and no longer exist, so they have to influence anymore. The followers of PSJJJ also may be wrong, but I would assume not since they are just all around awesome.

The only reason the Tribunal can be "false" is because they're not et'ada. If the people even BELIEVE they're gods, then that is good enough. And if people believe in them, then they still have SOME sort of influence.

I have no idea why you'd think Altmeri ancestor worship is false; I'd like you to clarify please.

because the believe that among their ansestors there are the greator ansestors, including -- but not limited to --

Phynaster (Who discoved shorter strides make you live longer)
Lorkan (Who obviusly wasn't an ansestor)
all the 8 aedra (in fact aedra means ansestor)
a few select deadra, which even means Non ansestor

The only Et'ada who could even be considered an ansestor is Y'ffre, as he became the elnofey. so they got 1/12 right.

I wouldn't call Sithis the devil. He's more like primordial chaos. Like I dunno, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamatfrom ancient Babylon or the Norse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginnungagap. Basically what existed before the universe. Or something like that.

My take on it is that there are definitely beings, and there definitely was a creation event sort of thing. The various religions are, rather, different accounts of the same event(s) and same beings. Kind of like when you ask people their recollection of an event, their accounts will be generally the same, but the details - names, timing, appearance, location, particulars - are different. Then add in thousands of years of re-telling, enantiomorphing and mantelling and other mythpoeic forces, and the accounts will have marked differences to the point where they appear to be almost different religions. Those are just my thoughts.

A God-hero, I don't see the problem here.



Do they? I thought they hated Lorkhan.



They actually have a fair claim here.


It all really comes down to how one defines ancestry. Familial descent isn't the only way.

While I've read through this thread, it's 10:45PM after a long day, so I haven't really digested it and am probably about to look like an idiot by repeating somebody else with different words. Nonetheless, onwards:

As a simple answer to the direct question, no. You can probably calculate a percentage chance in the very high nineties that not every major religion is correct, whether it be due to technicalities such as a god who has become mortal, or because some religion is just plain wrong. A list of reasons I believe this to be the case:

1 - People make stuff up, for whatever reasons. You break somebody's bowling trophy and cover with "Oh no! Mephistopheleois, God of Minor Destructiveness has struck again!" in front of somebody's impressionable kid, and BOOM! Religion. Doesn't make it true. Similarly, some Imperial explorer rolls up onto the shores of Elsweyr, chugs down some skooma and ends up getting a surprise introduction to Durkas, God of All Things Colorful and Swirly and Bringer of The Munchies.
2 - Things change. As previously mentioned, during a single playthrough of TES3, you can knock off your choice of up to three "gods", or at least a bunch of semi-mortals that are the basis of major religion. Yet, play TES4 and you'll notice nobody seems to have caught on to your rampant godicide. And, while I haven't really followed this recently, I do know that mortals have become gods, and gods have become mortals, sometimes without people knowing. Those people worshipping mortals that used to be gods AS gods? Their religion is wrong.
3 - Technicalities, the things people don't know. For all we know, the Nine Divines absolutely hate getting woken up at 3AM to get that 1GP offering, unlike common belief. So, on that basis, that part of religion is incorrect, making the religion wrong to an extent. That's clutching at straws, I know, but you get me.
4 - This is probably the biggest one, but practically ALL of the religions on Nirn seem to conflict, particularly between Men, Mer and Beast. I've been reading up on Redguard religion lately, and while a lot does seem to correlate between their gods and gods of other races (to the point of shared gods, in places), there's also a lot of room for disagreement. Some doubling up of gods and purposes, some blank spots where another god should fit, but doesn't.

Point four is probably the most important, along with the first, given that all intelligent races seem to have the ability to fill in gaps with their imaginations and such. Even races like the Sload and the Hist probably have differing views on religion. My point is, I highly doubt that all religions are correct. However, many of them are, but there's no real way of telling without lots of research, and even then you can't absolutely prove which are wrong and which are right.

Like Human religions, which correlate in some places (many religions support the story of Noah's Ark, for example, coupled with some amount of scientific proof) but disagree in others (Creationism versus Darwinism is still, to this day, a huge and ultimately unproven debate), religion on Nirn just doesn't piece together perfectly, whether due to overlaps or gaps. Oh, and factor in a lot of Chinese whispers and botched translations, you've got a big melting pot of religions.

The conflict between religions? Sometimes it's on a mortal level, between believers with differing beliefs, sometimes it's at the levels of the gods, such as what ultimately became a stand off between Dagoth Ur and Vivec & Co. in Morrowind. For example, when the Ra Gada (later known as the Redguards) landed in Volenfell (before it became Hammerfell), it was the HoonDing and Diagna who facilitated (inspired, ordered, allowed, however you want to put it) the invasion and slaughter of the inhabitants of the time, along with guidance and help from the other Yokudan gods. Later, Malooc (also a god of the Redguards, though probably better defined as a demon) led the goblin hordes against the Redguards, only defeated by the army of (guess who?) the HoonDing. Basically put, just because races and religions understand each other, that doesn't mean they're not going to try and skin each other alive over the whole deal. Even gods have wars. I mean, even the God of our bible demanded the slaughter of unbelievers back in his hey-day.

Giant post locked-down and complete SAH! :facepalm: (I like to interpret that emoticon as a salute rather than a facepalm, just so's you know)

What is the truth is more flexible? What if the truth itself holds a measure uncertainty? Some thing akin to Schroedinger's cat. The http://www.imperial-library.info/dfbooks/b055_lightdark.shtml describes a mechanism that allows different people to imagine different gods while still staying within a single story. You can think of it as different interpretations of Hamlet, they're all different but it's still the same role.

So they're all true in one way, but also false in an other way?

I mean since they all have got some kind of resemblances. But the racial and cultural views influenced the facts and unknowing stuff and made them different religions?

Actually, looking at the Varieties of Faith book, I don't think any religion is entirely correct. A lot of the gods of each pantheon match up, e.g. a bunch of them have Dibella and Mara and variants of Kynareth. But apart from those, you have things which are either not actual Gods (Jone and Jode, Riddle'Thar etc) or are 'false' gods (Tribunal, Reman), and the Yokudan religious pantheon is rather far removed from everyone else's. So while there is generally a common theme of the same gods appearing over and over, there's not one that only has distinctly tangible Gods only - unless you count Daedra worship. I think there were definitely events like those described in the Anuad books, but what actually happened, and the forces/gods involved, might have been different from what is now thought about them.

This is why I always preferred Daedra worship or Tribunal worship; they're definitely there, you can speak to them, you can see them, they have personalities. The Nine Divines are sort of far removed, and don't seem to affect the world as concretely as Daedra do. Elder Scrolls religions are full of hero-gods who were/are mortal, so I don't see why the Tribunal should be looked down upon or denounced specifically because they were not always divine.

SpeedCanHurt's first point is interesting because it holds true in reality, but in the Elder Scrolls world, I can imagine somebody blaming events on random made-up gods would be quickly pressed to find some evidence. In a world where gods (or at least mortals with immense power) can be PROVEN to exist, why would anyone bother believing in ones that can't be proven?

P.S. the word 'god' is starting to look really silly after typing it so much

There are a lot more ways a religion can be wrong besides being wrong about whether a deity exists.

Yeah, but I don't think you can particularly say any of the religions are morally wrong. Maybe the worship of one of the Four Corners? But even those Daedra don't seem to me to be inherently evil, and I'd still call their worshippers 'right'. Similarly, I think all the religions have gods that help mortals to some extent... or at least effect them in a tangible way.

What other ways would you suggest aside from being factually wrong (gods don't exist/are not as believed), morally wrong or 'pointless' (gods don't help)? (Sorry if this sounds confrontational, I literally mean what would you suggest, not in a sarcastic way haha)

Oh and I had a look on Imperial Library. Nine Divines worshippers seem to think that Daedra worshippers are "motivated by a lust for arcane power." Daedra worshippers think worshipping the Four Corners is "heresy". Dunmer think Imperial cults are "first and foremost social and economic organizations," and too "impersonal and formal" compared to the "extremely intimate and personal" religions of ancestor worship and Tribunal worship. So that might go some way to explaining the conflict between the factions.

Dwemer, for example. While their empirical knowledge of the divine were probably a lot more detailed than that of the other races, they thought that reduction was the way to the ultimate truth (Godhead, All, whatever).

And eight of them ARE the world personally, but only when working in tandem, and then only part of each at a time. In all likelihood, the individuated world-parts will become self-aware and try to reuinte with their originals in Aetherius, which would cause/require the absolute unmaking of Mundus.


Or like Chaos from greek mythology.

All Aedra became Ehlnofey - that was the cost of their part in creation, and what defines Aedra to begin with. The eight most prominent Aedra only stands out because of their power - the weaker had to "http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml#Altmeri". So, they became the Ehlnofey - ancestors of both Men and Mer. Altmer believe all Aedra (e g, those of the et'Ada who participated in creation) to be their ancestors. As Daedra didn't participate, they do not consider them ancestors. You're thinking of the Dunmer, who do.



Still no reason to not consider any of the main branches untrue. There are http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/shezzardivines.shtml only. If one or three hundred of their religions are made up is irrelevant. The same goes for different cults of and ways of venerating the same god.


Think of it as looking at the two sides of the same coin. Or a battlefield, with both elven and human cultures watching from different, and sometimes opposite, hills.

One person worships Mara, goddess of love. Another follows Mehrunes Dagon, prince of destruction. They have trouble working things out.

Vivec becomes a god but lies about the details. Some believe him. Some don't. Some are St. Nerevar.

The gods are not all perfect, so they are able to disagree. None of the gods are omnipotent, so they are able to interfere with each other. This is even more true of their followers.

anolysis based on real world religion usually fails.

Hmm.

I would say that most deities in the TES pantheon have some sort of quantifiable effect on the world. Some are greater than others, and some have more complex agendas (such as the Daedra). That being said, there probably isn't a religious faith in the TES universe that is without practical merit - except for the worship of some of the bad Daedra, like Molag Bal. But, I suppose he's right up your alley if your a sociopath.

Mundus is the plane or realm of existence that encompasses Nirn, its moons, and attendant Aedric planets. For all intents and purposes Mundus refers to these heavenly bodies alone, as they themselves float in Oblivion. The Mundus is a collaborative construct created by many divine beings. It was first conceptualised by Lorkhan, who then convinced other et'Ada (except the Padomay-aligned et'Ada, i.e., the Daedra) to assist him in its construction. Of these et'Ada, Magnus became the Architect, who drew up the plans for Mundus.

Some of the et'Ada gave parts of themselves entirely to the creation of Mundus. These became the eight planets of Mundus (not including Nirn); they are also identified as the Eight Divines, or Aedra. Some Aedra gave themselves completely to their creation, and became the Earthbones that form the substance and life of the final planet: Nirn (a.k.a. The Arena). Soon after the planets had formed, Magnus became disgusted at what Mundus was, and so left for Aetherius, his passage ripping a hole in Oblivion (the realm of Daedra that surrounds Mundus and covers it from Aetherius). This rip is viewed as the sun, and is responsible for much of Mundus' magical energy. Others soon followed after Magnus; these et'Ada left smaller holes, which became the stars. Some et'Ada did not manage to escape or chose to stay on Nirn as spirits. These et'Ada changed into the Earthbones (Ehlnofey) or simply wasted away into nothingness.

Because of Lorkhan's trickery of the other et'Ada, the Aedra met at Direnni Tower (a.k.a. the Adamantine Tower or the Ur-Tower) to discuss the punishment of Lorkhan. Trinimac then ripped the Trickster's heart from his chest and fired it into the sea with his bow. Its impact rent the earth and created a mighty volcano, now known as Red Mountain. The creation of the landmass that is modern Vvardenfell can be traced to this event. Because Lorkhan's Heart remained on Tamriel, it impregnated Nirn with his spirit (according to The Lunar Lorkhan : "a reasonable amount of his selfishness"), while his rotting corpse remained floating above the new planet as the two moons.

Everything else is a false belief created by the people and culture, and they do by being left alone but the real gods for to long they are eventully forgotten and since they have their own culture, the people also have their own gods but but the "Old Way" is the true belief.

Yes, because the elves are always right... :rolleyes:

:turtle:

There are no other beliefs. The gods are all the same. Just different stories, from different viewpoints, describing the same thing. The Nords, for example, focus much more on Akatosh/Alduin's http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/aldudagga.shtml#1 since they were on Lorkhan/Shor's side in the war that followed Nirn's creation. Another example: Altmer believe they descend from gods, the Nords claim their ancestors were giants. However, giant is the form of gods, so they're saying the same thing. Different stories, because of different viewpoints.

Except they're not really real, just like everything else in the wheel.
They only believe that they are real. If the inhabitants of Nirn believe they are real too, I guess that is good enough.