I personally think there is no problem with it being simplified, from my point of view yes its starting to become a little less RPG in some extent but I think like removal of skills are just being cleverly implemented into other categories within the game, You really think bethesda is going to dumb down their lovely baby of a game they just fine ways of making it seem simplified when infact its just implemented differently and in some cases I find better.

Bethesda is going to keep doing what makes them money.

And what makes them money are simple casual games for the console audience.

It's sad, but it's the world we live in now.

Sadly yes, it probably will be. Arena, Daggerfall and (to a lesser extent) Morrowind were all made for core RPG gamers on the PC. Oblivion and now Skyrim are being made for mainstream console gamers. They are very different audiences with very different ideas of what is a good RPG.

I'm not making fun of mainstream console gamers by the way, I am just saying their idea of what makes a good RPG and mine are very different.

Uhh, you make it sound like they are only catering to mainstream players which certainly isn't true. You have to remember that they are still making a role-playing game, not Call of Duty.
It does exasperate me that they have removed many good features that were in the past games and added some simplification but I think it's a bit too harsh to say that they would specifically target the mainstream console audience.
I have come to the conclusion that Skyrim will at least be much deeper than Oblivion.

This quote. Makes me angry.

I play on a console. Am I a casual gamer? No. Would I play on a PC if I had enough money to buy a decent rig? Probably. Do I currently have enough money to buy a decent rig? No. Did Todd say to the team before they started working on the game "Ok, remember guys, this will be for sale on consoles, so make sure to simplify it as much as possible!" ? I think not.

My point? Console game doesn't equal mainstream/casual/the devil.

It's called streamlining. People here act as if saying anything negative about Daggerfall or especially Morrowind makes you a "consoletard" who hates TES. And they complain about every different feature, which is sad. Especially when they say that Oblivion combat/magic/stealth was worse. Confusing really. The fact is that the games just keep improving. Oblivion was flawed as hell, yes, but it was still a great game. Not a lot of whiners when it came out. By 2006 standards it was freakin' amazing. Sure the atmosphere was different, but the streamlining and the gameplay was a lot more intuitive and exciting. Morrowind was flawed too, but that doesn't mean it was bad. Just older and different. I mean, it is possible to be a TES fan and like both Morrowind and Oblivion, even if I feel relieved when I play Oblivion to get away from the clunky Morrowind menus. :tongue:

Anyhow, I don't know why people come here just to whine about every difference and say Oblivion was the worst game ever compared to... what exactly? And then they say Skyrim is going to be even worse based on their extensive experience playing it... oh never mind. Personally, I am agreeing with the majority of the people here, who seem more mature and think that Skyrim will be even better and possibly the best game ever, until TES VI comes out.

Disagree, the sentence "casual games for console audience" is even quite Ironic. If they really wanted casual gamers, then the game would be PC exclusive game like Farmville or mafia wars. If all you want is big money from "casuals", you're hurting yourself building the game on a system which sole purpose is gaming, and cost a lot of money, everybody has a PC though, and you're not limited by the fact that people already have to be invested enough in gaming (like say a hardcoe gamer) to having bought a system which functions solely as a gaming system.

Why do you think not? Honest question... the gameplay and interface, options and graphics, were obiously simplified to work on consoles with traditional console gamers. That's not an insult, just a change that form my perspective is obvious.

@OP: At least one point is right, Todd said at the time of Oblivion he was "influenced" by LotR, and we got LotR 1.5... Now he says he likes Conan very much, so guess what, we will get Conan 1.5...

Oh yeah? Try killing your horse. I can do that in oblivion. Can you do that in daggerfall?

Its freedom was not unmatched anyway. Morrowind lets you do most things Daggerfall lets you do and more. Its size was unmatched, but size does not equal freedom. Furthermore, mere size does not necessarily make it a good game or a good RPG. Its flaws greatly outweigh its good points. The dungeons were nightmarishly big and repetitive, the skill system was poorly balanced with a great deal of crap skills thrown in to boot, the actual gameplay itself was pretty awful, character creation was horribly unbalanced, the entire world was boring and repetitive. Vampirism/lycantrophy were cool gimmicks but not enough to save the game.

Likewise.

Really now? That's insulting and it reeks of gaming snobbery.

I had not realized that the radient AI in Oblivion was simpler than that in Morrowind

Apparently the AI in Morrowind is more complex because every character had an "edgy" personality and just stood in place constantly because walking around socializing is just too mainstream. :tongue:

It's insulting and completely false. Just look at http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/5466/dd41fd2453b5404d8980b8f.png demographic breakdown from the Casual Games Association.

Casual primary platform: PC, Mac, Inexpensive console.

Hard-Core Enthusiasts Primary platform: Game Consoles, high-end PC.

It is insulting and neither wanted nor appreciated on these forums. Platform bashing is not tolerated on these forums.

The casual games title really belong to smart phones these days. Multitudes of those casual games bought on smart phones can also be found on browser games.

Rather, the observation here on consoles here should be that consoles inherently imposes several limitations on multiplatform titles compared to the PC.

Limited hardware forces developers to operate to the lower common denominator, limited memory, limited graphical api, no dedicated storage and etc. translates to generally to a smaller world size, can't make use of newer interfaces like dx11, streaming transitions/ load screens, low screen resolutions.

Its either holding back potential, or dumbing down the game. Mods kinda shows this.

Why is everyone slaughering Oblivion? Oblivion opened a door for many new TES-gamers, including me. If it weren't for Oblivion, I wouldn't be here right now. I'm sure Skyrim will turn out fine, probably the best game ever created. I'm not worried at all.

Keep the TES tradition, and stay positive.

Why be so negative? Why even bother posting these hateful comments? It seems as though you don't appreciate Bethesda and their work.

It's because Oblivion was not exactly the same as Morrowind. I've heard people bash every aspect of Oblivion, including the graphics, saying they were worse than Morrowind.

Related to the standing in place part, how am i supposed to assassinate a person who spend his whole life in a crowded tavern? At least in Oblivion i could kill them quietly.

Observing the victim's schedule to figure out when it would be best to rob them was also fun.

Indeed. Robbing them blind never got old

Also the DB quest with that altmer in Imperial City was fun, stalking him, findng the best time to strike :ninja: Hopefully there'll be assassination quests like that in Skyrim too.

I'd really like to see this random-generation of quests to be combined with the Dark Brotherhood. An unlimited supply of targets with schedules to kill would make it all the sweeter, in my opinion.

The reason the games are being simplified is because Bethesda wants to reach a broader audience. And I can't really blame them. If they continue to just satisfy only the hardcoe fans, they'll eventually go under. Game development becomes more expensive, thus a broader audience and buyers fill that expense. Sadly, it affects the hardcoe fans because they want what they used t get, but get no more. From an entirely financial point of view, Bethesda are doing exactly what's expected of a business company. And yes, Bethesda is a business company as they make products and sell them to consumers.

As far as principle goes, and being loyal to the hardcoe fans, Bethesda are straying from that. But sadly, that's the cost as the cost for game development becomes more expensive. It's impossible for any business company to evade this sad progression. And even more grave, every company will eventually go under... but that's something else. However, one way to keep development cost down would be to have a smaller team working on a game, but that would lead to a longer waiting time for a game, or have a full team but paying the induviduals working on the game less. Either way, simplifying is inevitable.

It's better to accept it, or actually change it and not nag about it.