... How is that BROKEN LORE, Jungle would have been AWESOME and something other than the super boring cliche standard fantasy it is now. Not to mention all other things described about Cyrodiil that are now simply gone.
Check this http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/cyrodiil.shtml entry about it.

One thing cought my eye.

The imperial city could have been so much more awesome...

Cyrodill being Jungle is "broken lore" to you?

I actually liked it a lot, it sounded really cool. I grew to deal with change, and for the next game they should expand on it lorewise.

But if they say "Cyrodill was always like this" I would be pretty pissed.

Seriously there are a lot more things in the Lore you could considder BROKEN but Cyrodiil being a jungle is not one of them. And no its not just about the jungle, it's also they they screwed the whole culture over big time only to make it A. simpler and B. as my guess is resemble "classic fantasy" more.



Guess what else, the whole COUNTRY should have been much more awesome.

Ah well.

I bet I would be like you too if i played Morrowind first.

Sadly it seems like they go down a spiral of making it less original. Morrowind was very different but looking at old concept drawings it ws DRASTICALLY simplified from what was originally intended. And sadly Cyrodiil is NOTHING like it's described in the pocket guide anymore. Seems like they don't aim for casual much but for the "generic fantasy" crowd.

Thus also my fear that, IF it would by Skyrim, it would most likely be Solstheim x 100 with cliche vikings thrown in.

Well hell on the subject of broken lore we still didn't get a good explanation on how Ebonheart grew legs and swam across the inner sea. But as for TESV if they change anything I'm fine with it as long as they give a explation explaing why and by explanation I don't want another Many headed Talos... Yes I know that it makes total sense in Lore but a longer explanation would be nice.

Can all be boiled down to one sentence, "a wizard did it", ok a god but the same. It's one of the lamest excuses you can imagine outside "it has always been like that" without any explanation.
Really "you suffer so i change the climate", nice, you just destroyed a whole ecosystem and it's wildlife so your people don't sweat so much...

the only people it made it "easier" for was the Devs since they didn't have to design a jungle environment and the culture THEY set up but just copy LotR.


You know it feels like bait and switch, "heeeyyyyy you see we have this super awesome concept, it's so original and different from the usuall... so you knwo what, we'll just throw all that out the window, copy what's popular and slap a name on it."

Your right about the Devs being too lazy to make the jungle but on the lore side, I don't think Talos changed it just because "ITS TOO HAWT".

The ecosystem and wildlife was probably extremely dangerous and the climate was probably terrible. So Talos decided to make the province of his people more comfortable, pleasant, and safe. But as I said, Jungle Cyrodill would be a lot more interesting.

I just changed my mind it could indeed be interesting.

As long as the ruins also have maya influences.

Well,
1) Cyrodiil's transformation is not exactly a good thing, now is it? I certainly don't consider it "OK." Nor, I think, do you.

and 2), the underlying premise that allows for Cyrodiil to be reformed in such a manner was twisted and used improperly (never mind that the decision to change things was done before the decision to reconcile it with lore, so MK just had to improv a retcon). Talos changed Cyrodiil's environments when he/it attained CHIM. The trouble is, CHIM is transcending the cycle of the world, passing into the last eternal gradient past mortal death. When someone has CHIM, it's inconceivable that they would use the power it grants on the world, because if someone had truly attained that state of mind, the power that comes with it is irrelevant and its usage would be boring.

Talos, once achieving CHIM, would have no ties or desire to alter the world, just as Vivec, once achieving CHIM, would have no desire to, say, remove a rogue moon.

Probaly tired of hearing this but is there an intended release date and what is the new one going to be called?? Cant wait for a new one i started with oblivion but i loved that game!

There's no official info; Bethesda hasn't even confirmed that they're working on TES:V. All the info that we have is located on the first post of http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1064256

I honestly wouldn't mind. But, whatever.
As for my dungeon idea, I'd rather TES explore non-combat skills.
Cooking, crafting and so forth. Along with a bunch of interesting characters to interact with.
Seriously though. There's something wrong about running into a place, killing everything that breathes. Or doesn't... And stealing everything, all while feeling perfectly in character. I'd rather the game make interesting quests. Hell, some good fetch quests, townside. Work at a barbershop. Smuggle things into town. Go to prison, have fun with the new, in depth prison mechanics. Buy a house, renovate it, sell it back. Have fun with the new, in depth economics system.
Get framed, spiral into poverty. Go to an inn, drink yourself silly. Get approached by a rich man, out of place in the bottom of society. Talk to him, using the new in depth dialogue system (not voiced). He offers you 5000 Septims to murder his ex wife. Investigate and learn where she lives.

The following can be in the combination you wish.

1 - Knock on her door / Pick the lock => Only to realise the door won't budge / Kill the door with the object of your choice / Break her window / Jump through her chimney => Only to realise there's a fire burning. Use your acrobatic skills to spread your legs, to avoid burning. => Climb back out

2 - Murder the woman on the spot / Pretend to be "X" and talk to her for a while => (OPTIONAL) Tell her you were sent by her husband / Tell her you were sent by her husband, then murder her. / Tackle her to the ground => (OPTIONAL) Feel bad and let her go


* Obviously, murder must be swift. BOOM! HEADSHOT!

3 - The guards are coming! A neighbor must've heard the ruckus! You must escape! Through the window? The Chimney? Trap Door? Threaten the woman, who may still be alive, to pretend all is fine. If you're persuasive enough, bribe the guards out of seeing the corpse. Or just tell them you're the house's owner. Or tell them you were attacked. Then run while they're investigating.

Continue on a series of murders to gain some money. Then, considering you're a hunted man, make a deal with the one that sends Bounty Hunters, using the new in depth dialogue system. Say things like "While you could continue sending legions of armed forces towards my room, the wonders of life allow you to stop". Or "Your mercenaries are pathetic. And seeing how you're converging all your resources towards me, I suppose you aren't having much luck with the rest of the list. And, seeing how efficient they are, I don't suppose they'd have much luck with that EITHER. Hire me?" -- "5000" -- "10000" -- "6000" -- "15000" -- "10000" -- "Deal."

Hunt magic users and become one yourself, living a double life.

Much more interesting than dungeons, right?

EDIT: I'd like to see descriptions of what NPCs' mannerisms are during conversations. Not advanced roleplaying forum section where people will write 5 lines describing how a person is blinking, but, you know, *blinking, as if to avoid you* (the last part depending on a skill check)

Quests are just one part of the world. Dungeons are another part. They both have their place in the world, http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1064713&view=findpost&p=15472220
Just as it would be improper to remove quests and replace them all with dungeons, so would it be wrong to remove dungeons and replace them all with quests.

When I enter a dungeon, it's not all about killing everything that moves, or looting everything that isn't bolted down. It's about exploration. It's about uncovering another layer of the world. It's about discovering secrets.

My Oblivion character explored Ayleid ruins to try to learn as much as possible about the Ayleids, just as my Morrowind character explored Dwemer ruins to try to learn as much as possible about the Dwemer. My Morrowind character cleared out the Dunmer Strongholds, not to kill and loot everything that moves, but to empty them of vermin so that the united Great Houses could have bases of operation in the struggle against Dagoth Ur.

RP is a powerful tool to giving explanation to all of your character's actions, whether they involve dungeons or not. What I perhaps enjoyed most about Morrowind's dungeons is that almost all of them told their own story with the hand-placed items and objects, as well as people. A tomb invaded by Daedra. A cave with a skeleton stuck to the wall with a longsword, a pile of soul-gems on the floor. Letters bearing remorseful last words. A hidden slave-pit arena. Great House retainers illegally encroaching past their borders. These things are thickly present in Morrowind's dungeons, if you take the time to see them as opposed to just hacking and slashing through them. Oblivion's dungeons? Not so much. It's why I'd like to return to that Morrowind style of storytelling.

As an aside, why would we be hunting magic users anyway? If we are to hunt magic users, then we'd better start hiring some Imperial Mananauts to invade Aetherius, and every other realm. Magic aka Creatia is the reason that Mundus exists at all.

Does it have to?

I'm not (in this specific instant), saying the lore should be changed. But suggesting diverging from traditional belief.

It doesn't but it's a easy excuse to say "THE WORLD IS BASED ON MAGIC SO NO TECHNOLOGYYYYY!!!".
Well the houses sure aren't built on magic, the weapons certainly aren't crafted through magic, the food isn't cooked with magic... for a world soooo based on magic it doesn't really feature a lot of USEFULL magic. So far it's just standard fantasy magic, stuff to kill things with.

I'd still like dungeons, but only about the amount that FO3 had, or, at most, the amount that MW had, as they managed to keep them fairly unique feeling.

I like your ideas Porridge, but you didn't include an improved sound system, you know, to prevent people from hearing you through twenty feet of solid rock? What about a one-cell world with no walled cities, made possible by the use of Umbra, which is BUILT IN to Gamebryo, and can be turned on by (almost literally) flipping a switch!

The only things that I'm against in your post were these to insinuations: BOOM HEADSHOT! (guns :nono: ) and the stuff about hunting magic users......

Ok, ok, well take away the bows and arrows then, too easy to kill something with a headshot.

Yes. It has to. That is part of such a core fundamental principle of the whole ES universe, that changing it not only would refute the whole core that it's a piece of, it would no longer be TES. It would instead be Boring and Therefore Wrong.

Stasis and Change, of which creatia is intricately tied into the former, is the interplay that makes unpredictability (i.e. Mundus) possible. Stasis and change is what is reflected all the way up to Anu and Padomay, all the way through the Monomyth, and all the way into Lorkhan's idea to permanently mix the two and create Mundus.

It's not something that can just be swapped out on a whim. It is part of a logically consistent philosophical foundation that the world rests upon, and one that, in one way or another, everything in the world is built around. If you change one thing in the foundation, it is no longer logically consistent. If you scrap the whole foundation and replace it with something else, then everything present within the whole fictitious world is affected.

Science, for example, bases everything it does and thinks on the basic premise that the universe is intelligible. If you were to change that fundamental premise, then science would be so significantly altered that it would no longer be science.

If you were to change the fundamental premises of TES, then it would no longer be TES.

I like guns, but that's not the point.
I was suggesting "realistic" (god, I hate that word) damage. Where a hatchet to the head results in DEAD.
I'm firm on my "Let's hunt 'em witches", however.

EDIT:
:rolleyes: But can't you atleast have people who deny this theory?
Also, how do you KNOW the world was created through magic?

There's a big problem there.

In reality if you'd take away physics the very base of the universe would fall apart, no gravity to hold it togehter, no chemical reactions, ny nuclear interaction...
In TES if you'd take away magic as it is shown in the games... the world would hardly look different than it does now, the only real "changes" are enforced ones like "magic prevented this desaster from happening".



That actually is a good point, how DO we know?
If you say "It's all there in the lore", well the lore was written by mortals, who doesn't say they just made something up?
If you say "They gods say so", how can you tell they don't lie or, again, just make things up?
If you say "But i can travel to the plains of Oblivion", how do you know they really are what's told about them? Even by what Is written it's said they're too complicated to really grasp by any mortal, how do we know they're not just a alternate reality and everthing the world is based on was a lie?

It was one of my old theories about the Dwemer, they simply saw through all this, this is why they turned their backs on the gods. Magic still exists, as a base power of that universe, but not neccessarily it's creating one.

Any issues I've seen you mention about them sounds more like flaws in dungeon design that can be fixed, rather than a reason to cut them out entirely. I want them to focus more on non-combat options too, but I don't want them to remove combat either. Dungeons encompass the vast majority of the things to find in the wilderness; a game that encourages exploration but has nothing to FIND is not a good game.

Individual dungeons should be more about what's there and why. As they exist now, dungeons are basically "training grounds," places for people to use their skills, and find some loot at the end. Every character winds up searching through all of them, because every character could use advancement and loot. The latter in particular, because the absence of any sort of mercantile/employment/non-dungeon-crawling options to make money forces everyone to either loot the city and find dungeons, or be flat broke. Even in factions, most of the jobs amount to visiting a dungeon because someone told you to. There is room, however, to make them more interesting and to have a point.

For one, it should probably be less about money. Aside from being almost the only profitable endeavor, dungeon diving is apparently the best paying job ever. You hear commoners talk about making a few coins a week. Meanwhile, I'm buying the biggest house in town by selling a sword a found in a dirty hole at the bottom of a cave. A sword that sells for a fortune despite no one else in town being able to afford to buy it from that merchant. Not a good business model. Why isn't *everyone* looking for this stuff? Why is it *everywhere*? I really don't think wealth should come about so easily by digging through someone's garbage or looting the spoils of bandits (people so desperate for money they went into the job in the first place). If you want big bucks, you should have to legitimately earn the stuff.

If they have more choices (removing the requirement of visiting dungeons to improve skills) and redistribute the money, you'll need new reasons to visit some ratty old dungeon, and that's where they can become interesting. Better faction relations/interactivity would make a priestly type WANT to clear a cave of undead to earn brownie points with the church and their deity. Maybe you're a wandering swordsman. Cave full of trolls? Who cares. Cave full of trolls where rumors say a famous swordsman died, and left his weapon behind? Now you're talking. Bandits are the concern of the guards, but with a living economy you might have a personal stake in getting rid of them, doing it yourself or hiring some mercenaries. Ruins could be hard to navigate, being partly collapsed, not worth it for most people but potentially having some valuable artifacts for nimble tomb robbers, or old manuscripts a mage could use to enhance their skills or win reputation among their peers.

I think the lack of importance around dungeons isn't so much a failure of the dungeon concept, but a failure of other options. They exist for little more than grinding because that's pretty much the only gameplay presented to you. As it is now, who cares if some old wreckage was burned by arson? If an evidence-based crime system were implemented, though, you could sift through for justice to be done or to blackmail the criminal. Despite all that, though, an open world generally needs dungeons in the form of "stuff" scattered around the land. People tend to enjoy open world because they enjoy the freedom of exploration, of finding something they didn't know about, and poking their nose into a place they don't know the contents of. Likewise, if the gameplay is fun, the grinding can be too. Legitimate reasons for visiting them would just add on to that.

No, if you take away magick, you take away the entire world. This isn't magick like hand-wavy "we don't know what causes it so we'll say it is magic" like we do in the real world (Santa is magic!). Rather, the magic of TES does follow its own rules (with exceptions), not unlike how scientist strive to describe the physical laws and properties that govern this universe - in all its complexities from gravity, to space-time, to quantum mechanics. The 'laws' (which may be mutable, considering the TES universe is composed of living beings, and Time is rather plastic - i.e. Dragon Breaks) and materials/atoms/energies (for lack of better words) that compose the TES universe are not 100% the same as this universe. Therefore, if you take away magicka - creatia - then you would indeed unravel the entire TES universe.

since when is hitting someone on the head = dead ever applicable in RPG games? If Bethseda decides to go that route then they might as well just turn ES into a open world action game.

The closest you'll get with your "witch hunt" idea is the mages guild since they hate necromancers


BTW we aren't supposed to be discussing guns as the moderator stated a couple pages back.