You're insulted because I said fictional characters can't force their brains to function well enough to experiment with and develop their own technology over a period of decades and centuries?

That almost warrants an insult.

Exactly. If Bethesda wanted to realistically introduce guns, they'd have to nix armor, or use some stupid dues ex machina as to why armor still works. Becuase in the real world, early guns spelled the end of armor.



If you want new technology, have repeating crossbows and such. Not guns, becuase that will change combat. Besides, who's to say that there is even saltpeter in Tamriel?

Oh I missread.... No I mean that totaly was the joke man!... yeah..

I don't want guns in the Elder Scrolls either, but never say that they have no need for firearms because they have magic. It takes a long time to learn magic, it takes very little time to make and learn to use guns. Peasants could easily kill archmages in battle if they were armed with guns.

And certainly, not every person can use magic. Hell, most mages guild members couldn't do much at all against someone with a gun. Spellcasting takes too long for that.

I don't think it would be game breaking.

For one, the real world has no magical armor which can provide magical degrees of protection. Even as it stands right now in Elder Scrolls, the more mundane armors (Fur, Leather, Iron, Steel) which have real world equivalents are some of the lowest quality available and pretty much everything punches through them anyhow, so the less realistic (Elven, Orcish, Glass, Deadric) armors are already seen as far superior; so it's safe to assume that they could offer some protection against low-velocity fire arms.

Second, the accuracy or early fire-arms was atrocious. Simply equip them (in-game) with a wide targetting reticule, as opposed to the precision of the bow and they'd be nearly useless at long range.

Third, they take forever to reload. So what you'd expect is maybe one good shot at close range, and then switch to a melee weapon; otherwise you risk being pounded to death while reloading. Sure, higher levels in the firearm (or appropriate) skill set could reduce reload times somewhat, but still, I don't see them as a primary weapon.

I think they'd fit in fine.

Magic ejecting guns?

Store up magic, put it into a bottle, launch the bottle which ejects the high-velocity spell?

Mages could sell them, so then everybody has a gun, just weak bullets.

Then, why do we need them if they aren't really that good? Or is it, Fable has them so now TES must have them because its "advancement"?

We could have tanks, but make them go slow, not be very accurate, and take a while to reload, but would that enrich the world of TES? Or would it just dumb down the world?

Next we'll be adding steam power, trains, flying machines, all as integral parts of the game (whereas they were before just mysterious things that existed mostly inside dwemer ruins). Why does TES need to suddenly become steampunk? Why can't it stick to being somewhat alternative medieval fantasy? There's still so much of Tamriel we have not seen or experienced.



:facepalm:

I was thinking more along the lines of "Magicka and Machinery" simply don't agree with eachother for whatever reason. Something about moving parts interfereing with the magical function or something. . .

This prevents magical guns/ammunition.

Assuming such a limitation were necessary. It all comes down to whatever manner fo mechanics the developers choose to bake into the way fire-arms function.

what about scrolls?

I seriously hope guns will not be included you have no idea how I felt when I saw that
Of course the Dwemer ruins in Morrowind where a big shock too...

The thing about the Dwemer ruins, is that technology belongs to a long and forgotten race and should stay mostly that way.

Once we start making things like guns, dwemer satchel charges, steam power all integral parts of TES games, it will be practically a different game.

A steampunk RPG might be cool, but thats a new IP thing (as a matter of fact, I would have rather had that than Fallout 3). TES shouldn't be transformed into steampunk though.

The world should change, but the technology should remain relatively the same. Like going from Ancients times to late Medieval times in the real world.

That's a little bit of a strawman and a whole lot of assumption on your part.
Let's be clear on this; I've honestly never played, nor even seen the Fable game(s?) being played.



We could, but that doesn't make any sense.
See, the difference between rudimentary firearms and tanks is that, for the former, all the elements required to are already in place in the game. The game actually looks as if it -should- have them.



I suppose one could add those elements, in theory, I would say though that since the Dwemer were the only ones to delve into such large-scale technology and they were destroyed, there might not be alot of folks working with it currently. That said, I seem to recall there being a -recently- crashed flying machine in Solsthiem. . . so I could be wrong.

Aren't we supposed not to talk about guns?

Is that in the rules somewhere? And I missed it?
Surely we can get away with it if we're discussing it in a "Should this be added to a video game?" format.

What i really don't get is the idea that rudimentary fire-arms are bad, but mechanics which work in essentially the same way are alright because they're magic.

For instance, "If we have guns, then we may as well do away with armor; because it'd be pointless."
You know what else armor is terribly ineffective against? Fire.
And yet no one complains that you can litereally create it from thin air and hurl it like a baseball.

It's ok that it's magic; but package it in metal and wood and suddenly it's gamebreaking?

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1065099

The first few post.

Can't find the exact place where it was stated though, probably in thread 145 somewhere.

EDIT : Aha! There -> http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1064713&view=findpost&p=15470921

Nevermind, I'm not gonna open old wounds of the gun argument.

I have confidence Bethesda will see justice served about that topic, in TESV.

That doesn't seem to object to civil discussion about firearms mechanics in a game.
I get the impression that the linked conversation spiralled out of control and into real-world gun-based scenarios.

We're clearly discussing the logical progression of fantasy technology, not modern warfare.

Hey, I was just trying to compromise, I don't like watching people argue.

Does not exist in a fantasy game! Hence the term "fantasy."

What if technology went a bit backwards? Like, say after the disappearance of the Mages Guild some of the spells from the previous games were forgotten. Some of the quests for the new factions could have you rediscovering them and spreading the knowledge (or hoarding it for yourself to keep an advantage over the other mages).

Logic exists. . . even in a fantasy game.
Especially in this one where even the laws of magic have -very- specific rules and limitations.

Time is still measured by cuases and effects; and thats all progression is.

Fantasy and technology are not "exclusive" to each other, technology can easily exist in fantasy. Really that fantasy MUST be primitive is a old cliche. Look at the "Thief" or "Legacy of Kain" series that has some relatively advanced technology. LoK is actually a good example of magi-tech in some fields.

You bring up a good point. Especially considering the Empire is crumbling and currently in a state of civil war.

TES can more be compared to the later Roman times than the late Middle Ages. Is that really even a realistic time for far reaching inventions like firearms?

And on the subject of logical progression of technology, my main point was that there doesn't have to be logical progression in a fantasy game. Plus, the invention of guns relied on the implementation of saltpeter. No implementation, no guns.

Guns, in my opinion, are just superfluous. They are either ridiculously over powered, or severely underpowered through some stupid deus ex machina. Why are they neccesary? How would they enrich the TES world? Why does a fantasy game that is primarily based on medieval technology and magic suddenly need to have guns?

So guys, I'm fooling around a lot with the NaturalMotion software, and it's actually really good, you could use it for a lot of things, including simple things like slipping on ice and tumbling down a hill.

However, I don't know how they'd implement it in a game. It works fine for making movies, but there's something called "euphoria:core" that lets the behaviors work while a game engine is running.

I know more likely than not we won't be able to grab onto edges or do fun acrobatics, but it'd be easier to make for Bethesda with this stuff.

So, NPC physics while the NPC is alive is something I'd like to see in TES V.

Back to figuring out how to make a character run.

You've taken me all wrong.
In fact, I don't think you could find anywhere in the thread where -anyone- stated that it -needed- guns. I'd just like to see a progression (one way or the other) in the cultures and technology of the game world. As it stands, they are stagnating.

Now, barring some manner of event which forces Tamriel into a comparitive "dark age" there is no reason to assume said technology would reverse; so the eventual development of machines is inevitable, and with it firearms (sure fire salts could substitute for saltpeter). Incidentally, both gun powder -and- machinery were in use during the Roman period, even if not necessarily by the Romans.