It objects to the fact that civil discussion is doomed to fail on this subject. Gun discussions have come and gone several times in the past and each one inevitably ends with people shouting and throwing sand at each other, with plenty of fault on both sides.

As I keep saying every time, it has nothing to do with whether advancement makes sense; it's a genre preference. There are different settings and layers between them out there (pure old-time fantasy, steampunk, sci-fi, etc.), and people have their favorites. They want the game to change and more resemble their favorite, or they want it to stay the same and stay at their favorite. The whole argument boils down to "my preferences take priority over yours" and always charges toward the same end.

This, I'm assuming, is how the conversation degrades; when people stop reading what others are saying an making unfounded assumptions. In this case it's not a genre preference, it is a consideration of logical progression.

The only -preference- I'm expressing is the desire to see some thing change from one game to another, in any direction.

Ultimately it come down to the developers; do they want to continue to make a series of games which never really change aside from engines, graphics, and stories? Or do they want to make a world that grows and evolves with a logical progression of events and characters?

I would too, just not into the direction of another fantasy genre. Guns, steam power, and technology of that type can be saved for a different IP. The world and cultures can evolve in other ways. There is the potential for dramatic change considering the empire is in crisis.



The fall of the empire is a comparative "dark age" and "the eventual development of machines" in NOT inevitable. Major technological advancement is only inevitable in the real world. There hasnt been much technological change throughout the history of Tamriel. Why should there be now?



Actually, not true. The Chinese used it first and didn't discover it till long after the fall of the Roman Empire. Plus, remember, Europe was in the Dark Ages at that time while China was in a Golden Age. There was very little technological advancement in Europe at that time. Tamriel is currently very far from a Golden Age. But even if it was in a golden age, like Roman times, that doesn't mean gunpowder will be inevitably discovered.

Agreed, except I have no prefence in regards to direction.



There in lies the source of my discontent. That's what I've been saying the whole time.
To date there has been no progress, at all, and it doesn't make any sense. As long as there are individuals who think and desire a better quality of life than they currently have, then there -will- be progress. Whether or not it's major is irrelevant, it could just as easily be a series of small advances; we're talking about a span of 200 years.

To accept that nothing has changed in Tamriel (technologically) since Arena, is to assume that either progress is impossible (somehow) or that everyone is so content with their lives that they've no desire to make anything better; a concept which the constant conflict surely refutes.



I stand corrected.

It is about preference. I prefer to never see gunpowder in TES. I would like things like electricity, flying machines, engine-powered vehicles to never play a major part.



That's because Bethesda did not plan a clear technological path Tamriel would follow. Tamriel has almost everything we had in the middle ages and the renaissance. What else can they do without moving into a different fantasy genre?

However, gunpowder is created using various other materials: sulfur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate. We don't know if Nirn: 1)has all three of these, 2) has these in enough abundance to keep up a steady-enough supply of gunpowder to power firearms or other devices. It may be that one or more of the necessary ingredients is not abundant on Nirn.

I agree, though, some sort of advancement would be nice. Like, you know, indoor plumbing.

They've got Sewers in IC, just no bathrooms.

It must svck that every Imperial citizen would have to descend in the sewers just to use the bathroom.

I wonder how the bandits can stand the smell... most people are probably afraid to go too far in the sewers... ew. Do they just go in the doorway or something?

Sulfur? Morrowind showed us that sulfur is pretty plentiful, at least in some regions. What with all the volcanos and what not.
Charcoal? You mean the substance left over after fire burns pretty much anything?
Potassium Nitrate (aka Saltpetre)? is a naturally occuring chemical resulting from the decomposition of organic material (ie: urine and feces) mixing with salts. Assuming there is a need for indoor plumbing, I'm pretty sure this chemical is attainable.

Heres the thing though:
In any other situation (meaning that TES wasn't a video game) I would agree with you that guns would fit with this world having been around for several thousand years of time to advance.

But it isn't a book or a movie. Its a video game. I like that it is fantasy. I like swords. I like sorcery. I like Call of Duty. But I don't like guns in my TES.

Its not about what makes the most sense. Its about what keeps the series feeling like it should. I personally do not feel that guns would add anything magic can not already do with twice as much flavor to boot.

In addition, I'd rather see advances in the area of magic. Better understanding of schools and certain, once profane arts, now becoming more accepted. This could allow necromancy (although not illegal, it was looked down upon) to become a skill and make sense within the context of the setting.

The discovery of gunpowder was a chance accident, however. Chinese scholars were searching for a forumal for the "exilir of life". Sure, you could make gunpowder on Nirn, but you'd have to know how first. And then once you made it, you'd have to know how to apply it.

Dude, you've got alchemists mixing everything under the sun just to see what happens.
Eventually something is going to explode and someone is gonna find a way to use it.
How much different is black powder, from an arrow that does fire damage on impact?

Again, I'm not pushing for guns, or steam tanks, or flying machines (though at least one already exists); I'm just saying that aside from "developer preference" and "the feeling of the setting" there is nothing realisticly preventing the development of rudimentary fire arms.

Guns didn't wreck Assassin's Creed II... it had a wicked long reload time, and the aiming was unreliable.

But we have yet to go through a "Tamrielic Renaissance"

Which I want to be a part of

My main beef with adding guns is that it would be natural progression. It would be too similar to the real world.

What I loved about Morrowind was its alien feel. Guns would ruin that for me.

I'd rather there be repeating crossbows. Their function is practically the same as guns.

And of course, the issue is that magic would be superior to guns for a very long time, while fulfilling the same purpose.

And gunpowder (or an equivalent) exists already, as there are references to cannons used on ships.

You must admit, seeing the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwacha in action on Mythbusters was a terrifying and beautiful sight to behold. oo:

When you think about it technology in Tamriel is pretty primitive. Yes, I know that magic makes up for it, but not everybody can use magic (although gameplay says otherwise). Why not have some sort of working catapult or one of those giant crossbows (forget what they're called) that were found near Dwemer ruins? Magic cant be a solution to everything.

Okay, maybe that... :drool:


But no muskets or arabesques! Nevereverevereverevereververvarine!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballista But yeah, siege weaponry, as long as its mostly mechanical, would be a fine addition!

Which is all well and good. . . I just want to see -something- new, something different.
Though unfortunately, it would appear that both Man and Mer have forgotten how to use crossbows all together (and spears ).

I picture more kinds of spells in Tamriel's future, like you said, magic would be superior to it. In real-life during the early years, you could have a bow, or a sword. In Tamriel they've already got magic, bows, crossbows, darts, swords, maces, axes, daggers, staffs, throwing stars, and a whole bunch of other things, I don't see why they'd say "We need more projectile weapons!"

I think if Earth had begun with magic that:

1. Technology would have advanced much more differently

2. Technology might not advance as much because we can already use telekinesis, levitation, water breathing, "unlock" spells, fire spells, healing spells, w/e.

The main thing is, when you have magic, it nullifies the need for there to be technological advancement in almost all areas. People on Earth technologically advanced because they had to, they needed the things. The Infant Mortality rate was huge, and people would die of diseases more often than wounds during wars. Thus, medicine was further developed (Alchemy and Restoration Spells). There have been technological wars between many countries, if you had the best weapons, you'd win. (Destruction Spells, Weapons that are already in Nirn). People needed to complete specific tasks like diving to the bottom of a lake. (Alteration Magic). People needed to get food, so they invented more technology for that too.

The last one, is where I think the most advancement would be. They still haven't perfected the art of harvesting, gathering, and cooking. In reality, if you had a "TES" world, the most development would be for leisure and food. You've already got all you need with magic, besides food, water, and companionship. So, people would build things to entertain themselves. They'd be more developed in exploration technology, more developed in recreational technology (although they could use magic for that too). The Dwemer were basically a lesson that technological advancement in a magical world leads to everybody blowing up into ashes. (Magic Nuke)

They don't need more protection, more offense, or more survival technological advancements, because they have magic.

To me, this is the most interesting argument. Why would anyone want to use a matchlock, or even a hand cannon, with all their misfires, explosions, not being able to hit anything, and even if they did, probably not do much damage, when there are so many fireballers around?

Because they might not be one of those fireballers?

Technology is pretty much the poor-mans magic. Meaning, it's accessable to anyone who can push a button.
Not everyone is a wizard. A firearm provides a certain degree of appeal to those who aren't particularly apt in the art of finger-waggling; especially when there's a pretty good chance that the guy you're up against can hurl balls of molten flame at your head.

For christ sake dont use the same engine as Oblivion and Fallout.................... It all looks a bit cardboardish and stiff.

Well, with 45 gold they could be. Fortunately in the TES universe magic isn't selective. Any race can learn spells, and the beginning spells are relatively cheap.

Otherwise Magic vs. Non-magic wars would have erupted.