Sure Rpgs come in FPP, after all it is only perspective I think the wizardry series is in FPP.



I didn't like Morrowinds dice system, firstly because it's flawed in a FPP Rpg. FPP demands control of the head/aim/general body. Had morrowind been in third person, and with a lock-on feature it would work, but it doesn't, resulting in a broken system.

In morrowinds system you basically have two hit detections, the hit of the player and the hit of the character.

Character hit will only have a chance of succes, if player hit is detected. This is a big flaw, because it puts player skill in the center, This is enhanced because of the few hits it takes to win. The character can be a master swordsman, but his skill wont matter if the player doesn't hit. The NPCs never have this problem, because they all have auto lock on.



I disagree, I'm always confused when people say they can't miss in Oblivion, I've missed a million times. The combat comment is valid though, damage should be higher.



I don't want morrowinds system improved, because it is broken from the beginning. Some of the suggestion are good and could be added on top of physics based hitting (Oblivion), with skills/stats determining what happens when you hit (as well as other stuff). I've crossed out those that wouldn't work, even in Morrowind. Showing the enemy dodge because of your skill, is a bad idea. If the enemy svcks at sanctuary and agility, but you svck more, he will magically be agile in combat with more ducking and leaning. I wouldn't like that, which is why I would rather have dodging as a separate skill.

Even if you could have math expert change the formula so that 80-80 resulted in more misses than 40-40, you would still have the problem that player hit always trumps character hit.

Player hits -> there's a chance the character hits

Player miss -> there's Never a chance that the character hits, because the game doesn't even recognize that you're trying to hit anything.

This wouldn't be a problem with a lock-on feature (Player skill is always successful), but we can't have that because of FPP. FPP demands control of aim, and lock on would also lock the viewing direction, even if it only locked the attack direction, so you could turn your view and look away, now you would be blind to possible tactical situations on the target you locked on to.

The absolute best possible solution as I see it, would to have (in a combat duel):

Stats govern Physics

Physics governs Hit

Skills governs what happens when you hit (make contact with the opponent).

This is just combat related, of course stats should also govern skills, and all the other stuff.

Dice Rolls

Why not make the dice determintate how chances are that you will do maximum damage?

Example:

Skill: Blade - 40

Weapon: Silver Longsword - Damage: 13 - 22.

The chance that you will do high damage is weak cause you blade skill is low, wich means that you chances to do low damage is high.

This is a great idea. Bethesda should use this in TES V. It would be good because there is still a chance for a critical hit at a low level. Great idea man, drinks all around! :foodndrink:

Nice avatar BTW

I completely agree, exactly what I had in mind, coupled with skills determining chances of critical failures and critical hits. Awesome.

I don't see what people have against Morrowind's dice roll method. I can kinda understand the want to cause damage when your sword "hits", but that was 8 years ago. I think Bethesda can create slightly better AI now. If Morrowind's system is used, enemies will dodge when you miss, or you will perform a bad swing. Personally, I could cope with Oblivion's system, but I want Morrowind's system to return. Sure, give a higher hit chance with lower damage to even it out, but please, let those of us that want to fail, fail.

They went bankrupt. What a shame.


I don't understand. What can be done for this? There is always an input needed from player. We can't just press an auto-combat button and wait. I think players input is something we should all agree to sacrifice.

The miss/parry/fence is there to minimize the player's mouse button skills. It is like magic. Player aims perfectly to the head and NPC ducks at last moment. This can't get any better. If you miss as a player well there is not much to do. I think the percentage of player's misses can be used to normalize a typical combat's miss chance.


I think you miss a lot as a player. You should practice. Damage should be lethal. Local damage will give us some possibilities. Also take note, in sword play there is no crosshair. Game can manipulate everything. There will be small wounds that maybe wouldn't even count to health points.(I proposed a system with two zoned health point system where one part is major wounds and other is minor. Minor part regenerates. But for major and bleeding wounds, treatment is necessary.) To balance this, you can make the combat parrying based. Combats can end up with two warriors walking away from each others!


It won't be Morrowind's system or Oblivion's system. It will be a new system. My example was Dark Messiah's system but stat based. If you read my previous comment, I want a system where stats go directly to physics core. But I said IF this is too hard for them, they can use a simpler formula like Morrowind's to manipulate physics. (I couldn't give Oblivion as an example because they don't have a miss system.)

Dodging skill is not needed because we already have Agility. We can discuss if reflex is a skill or attribute too.

I too hate the magical balancing agility. That's why I ask help for changing the formula.

Instead of
Chance to hit=.....

maybe

Chance of parrying for NPC=...
Chance to parrying for PC=...

You said "you would still have the problem that player hit always trumps character hit." You should explain it to me more clearly. We can't go with full hit chance of Oblivion's if this is our concern. We should make a sacrifice and ignore player's inability to miss. (I offered a solution for that above.)



Only a Sith deals in absolutes. My proposition is a physical system like Oblivion's with NPC reflexes overriding. I also agree that weapon skill must deternine what happens when hit. But we should also take note for different weapon types, different attributes can play a role. Short blade needs intelligence. Watch Dexter. Bows need strength. Long blades can ask for strength or agility depending on the type of blade, see Rob Roy. A 2.2 Ghz dual core can organize these and much more.

We should really not worry about Player's skill, there is really nothing we can do about it. Does your proposition eliminate player's skill problem? I think mine is minimizing it. With always hit, we will end up with overly in number weak hits or a couple of strong hits. But I say it can be something like this:

Massive spoilers:
(I hope you've seen these great movies.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHCvV8uUr9U
Attributes, skills, weapons, roleplaying...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp1mzx5O4ao
Attributes, skills, shields, roleplaying...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3gfFVmw0kA -This is comedy but still better than many swordplays out there. Option to use which hand. See the use of Acrobatics skill. Also note possible ways to end a duel.

I can give many examples. The importance of skills and attributes. Weapons advantages and disadvantages. Personality plays role in fights. Lots of defensive maneuvering. These can be seen.

3vs1:
I enter the fight with my high throwable weapons skill(yes we need this), eliminate the big guy with one shot. I take out my primary weapon and use my high agility and strength on the weaker opponent and finish him off with one or two stabs. Now I and my worthy opponent can have some nice long swordplay.


@TzToppDogg,
Good idea. Introducing luck wherever possible will minimize player's skill.

1. A game option that controls the rate of repops in game.

2. More mobs in wilderness, more people in towns, more travelers on roads.

3. More non-aggressive creatures, ie rats, birds, rabbits, cats, dogs, etc.

I suggest changing the starter dungeon idea. While it adds to the story and helps teach the player the game, it is to me, one of the aspects of the game that prevent me from getting into Oblivion after I have played several games... Perhaps make it mandatory the first time and after it is accomplished all previous saves can start "outside the prison" and go straight to character creatures, with the escape still technically occuring, just not under player control.

The weapon should always deal within the same range of damage.

You should be able to miss (not as often as Morrowind, but not as rare as Oblivion). Modify the die-roll system.

My only suggestion at this point is......announce the game lol.

In order to do that, they'd have to make sure there is nothing relevant to the story in the starting area. Giving the option to skip would be ok. But at the same time, that tutorial section is really a part of the main quest. Making it shorter would be better. Morrowind had the quickest most painless tutorial. And very little of that was relevant to the main story. Although I didn't think Oblivion's was that bad, if you've been through it once you can finish it in about 5 minutes if you move quickly.

Well I meant you'd have to complete it at least ONCE, and all previous saved you could skip it... That way if you remember perfectly well the plot of the game you can skip it, and if you still want to enjoy the tutorial + opening to the story you can play through it.

Cloaks from Daggerfall and the ability to put a robe over your armor like in Morrowind.

No skills perks. It's ridiculous that heavy armor becomes weightless when worn and light armor becomes as strong as heavy armor. It defeats the purpose of having different armor types and having to choose between their pros and cons.

Rework the armor system. Not on a system of damage reduction capped at 85% like in Oblivion. Back to the old system.

A better combat system. The hack, slash, block, rinse and repeat was tedious.

A unique and diverse sense of culture.

Fatigue should not be able to restore when running, at all. You don't have to go back to the "lose it when you run" mechanic but at least make it so you don't regain any fatigue when you run.

The magic system. Wasn't a fan of the whole magicka regaining thing. If you do make it regain over time without resting, at least make it very slow. Also, give spells a chance to fail. Edit: Potions too.

A reworked fast travel system that isn't like Fallout 3's or Oblivion's. Hopefully this would allow the comeback of levitation, anchor, mark, call, recall, etc.

"disagree, i think if health can come back why not magic?"
I don't understand what you mean by this.

I'd actually like to see more atronauts ala Battlespire. I feel they looked far more impressive. They seemed more muscular and had weapons. The flames/frost on them looked far greater than that on Morrowind and Oblivion, too.

Also, don't use such smooth meshes all of the time. Things really lost the threatening feel because they were soft and smooth. Oblivion's Scamps and Clannfears often seemed that way to me.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:BS-Monster-Fire_Daedra.jpg

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:BS-Monster-Frost_Daedra.jpg (Quite a bad angle)



You do realise that Oblivion is the only game in the series where you had no chance to fail? The games have always been a character skill based game, before Oblivion. NOT player based. If I have low stats, I shouldn't be able to do anything any time I want. Also, if failing is implemented, you will likely get 100% chance on every spell at the same time as you'd get the ability to use the new spell, if there is failure. I doubt we'll get back the great failure chance morrowind had. Hopefully It'll be modable, anyway. ^_^

An addendum to a previous post about repops.

Implement a system of repopulation but do so in a way that makes it seem 'natural' or 'believable' as opposed to a simple materialization out of thin air.

Examples

A. Roving mobs of hostile humanoids wander the wilderness and sometimes camp at the random camp sites on map.

B. Bears, big cats, wolves, goblins etc emerge from burrows too small for the PC to fit into

C. Dragons simply fly in from the sky and land at a spot to drink, feed or loiter.

D. Oblivion gates magically materialize and out come forth a collection of beast Daedra,..the Oblivion gate then closes and disappears.

D. My personal favorite...Daedra emerge from molten lava, wailing in agony. :wink_smile:

I have been playing a few games with quite good mele combat, Pirate Vikings and Knights 2 and Deamons souls and Assult on Dark Athena.

I think that merging those two combat systems would make a great first person mele game giving the player a chance to do diffrent kinds of damage whit diffrennt attacks from the same weapon, like slasing when moving rigt or left and stabing when moving backwards.
Also add diffrent kinds of physical damage (like piercing blunt and slashing) and armour that protects against the diffrent kinds of attacks diffrently.
another work-around is a arour penetration system, but then we would need armour in numbers instead of procent.
And by that I dont men hevy armour is good at this while medium is good at that and light for that other thing.

Diffrent side-grades of armour and weapons is also needed then. diffren types of swords like sabers, scimitars, broadswords, longswords and estoc/tuck swords, with diffrent speed, damage (kinda like morrowind) and damage types depending on your movment.
example:iof u move backwards with a warhammer you will hit the enemy with the pommel giving a greater attack speed and maybe knockback.

Also, Throw in some easy combos and event sencetive(spelling??) attacks like: do a bacwards power attack with an axe while your enemy is blocking to attempt to grab the edge of the shield with the "beard" of the axe and pull him off balance and out of the block.
or left ligt chop (that hits) followed by a right power attack with a warhammer have a greater chance of knocking the enemy off the feet.

I also think that fautige sould play a mutch larger role in the combat like in deamons souls where stamina is pretty fast consumed and if you run out you are almost screwed but it regenerates quickly.

If we throw in some kind of counterfeture or killing blow as in Riddike and deadly reflexes make themn spesific, so that the only affet the caracter if you do the right attack at the right moment, throw in stamina, astribute and skill comnparison and a dice to see the outcome of your counter.
example: a head on counter attack my be "triggered" if you charge an tiered oponent trying to swing at you in just the right moment, maybe checking your futige, longblade, strenght, luck, agility and athletics against his fautige, agility, luck , armour type and sikll in that armour to determin the outcome of the attack, maybe it will glance of his plate maybe it will doi a big chunk of damage and maybe kill off directly.

sorry for misspelling and bad english

Oblivion is a character skill based game. If you don't have the required skill level in Oblivion, you can't cast a spell of that degree, and in Oblivion, instead of the rate of success increasing with skill, the points needed to cast the spell are reduced as skill increases. Oblivion is NOT a player skill based game. Try summoning a Xivilai with a low conjuration skill(won't even be possible) or try to take on an enemy at level 20 with a blunt weapon(with which your skill is only 30) instead of your preferred blade weapon(with which your skill is 65). There is a big difference. Oblivion's way of handling character skill doesn't make the character skill play any less of a role, it just actually rewards learning by use and finally breaks free of the having to buy training problem. Failure was replaced by damage dealth(with weapons) and requiring a certain level of skill to use spells of a related category/reduced cost of magicka(with spells). Whether you agree with that change or not is one matter, but the claim that Oblivion is a player skill based game is a false one.

Just a tiny suggestion on armor. I would love to see more armor styles. In Oblivion every single suit of steel looked the same, now there could be at least two or three different styles of armor, i'm sure morrowind had at least double the amount of armor pieces than Oblivion. This would contribute to an overall feeling of diversity. To make it further interesting they could something along the lines of what they did in Morrowind and make armors that belonging to different races like the dunmer bonemold, chitin and netch leather or the nordic steel, ringmail or fur.

Sorry, I am talking tabletop games (or pen-and-paper, or dice-based). I figured that if you care to look into why AD&D is called an RPG, then you might understand why a lot of people consider Morrowind, Oblivion, and their ilk to be pure RPG's and not just hybrids. If you don't care, though, nevermind.

Excluding the Elder Scrolls, I can't think of a whole lot of computer FPP RPG games. Maybe Wizardry 8 from 2001? It is turn based. The player makes tactical choices; character abilities take care of the rest. From playing just the opening, I would call it combat heavy. Unfortunately, I never ventured far enough into it to comment on its non-combat aspects. It looks decent to me. Here are some http://www.rpgplanet.com/features/screenshots/wizardry8/.

I used to think that real-time first-person perspectives and detailed graphics would severly limit how much worthwhile stuff could fit into a game. I formed that impresson through comparing the limited content of games like Doom and Heretic to the abundant content of the RPG's of the time. Morrowind surprised me and got me thinking that maybe I was wrong. Oblivion, on the other hand, has me thinking that maybe I wasn't so wrong after all. It seems that advancing computer game technology could be leaving support of important RPG features behind.

Compare that to past Elder Scrolls games. Oblivion is far too player based skill orientated, imo.

Anyway, that's not really the point. The point is that Pupp doesn't want any limits on mages. Fail chances don't put limits on mages, rather they give more to mages, without inbalancing the game.

I'm confused, I can't see any particular thing I'm against, so I'm just gonna home in on single things that I find grey areas. You were arguing that skills should minimize player mouse button skills, but shouldn't skills then also override player nonskills with the mouse button? Some of these battles are hopefully not gonna be non-mobile? That was the problem from Morrowind, it gimps you when you hit, but doesn't save you when you miss.



A miss as a player is a miss as a character, in either game. Other than that I don't really see anything I'm against here either.



Alright, I'm all for stats affecting physics directly.




I understand where you're coming from. I just think that it would be easier to just have a dodging skill (governed by agility).

I mean I wouldn't say sneaking skill isn't needed just because we have agility, agility governs a lot of things, but being good at sneaking, doesn't make you good at dodging, or at least it shouldn't.



Well it isn't our concern, or at least not my concern, I want full hit chance (with exception only given by the dodging skill, and player skill), if the physics dictate that I should hit at that range and speed. I want the skills to affect what happens when I hit, how I hit, so to speak.

I think we're saying the same thing, only I have a skill for it, while you have it in some other way.

Anyways here's what I mean by player skill trumps character skill.

The character only gets a chance to hit, provided the player hits. ergo, the player hitting, doesn't actually guarantee a hit. This is because the game doesn't want you to be better than your character actually is.

However, if the objective is to have the chance of a hit represented by the character skill. Then Character skill should also overrule player skill when you're lousier than your character is, ergo, if you miss where based on your characters skills, it is not reasonable that you should have missed, character skill should overrule player skill as it does in the case of player skill > character skill, and it should make it a hit. This is not represented in morrowind, understandably, because it is also impossible. ergo, the system is broken.

So what I am proposing, is a system where player skill always hits, and then factor in character skills/stats in some other way. i.e. what happens when you hit.

Consequently, this is also what your proposing. I think. I'm confused at this point.



Can't argue with that. I've actually thought of one skill not only being governed by a single attribute. Like you say, short blade needs speed, but also intelligence, or agility for that matter.



I don't think the issue is to eliminate player skill, it is to have character skill have the greatest impact, for worse, and better, and I don't think that this can be done by tampering with Hit chances, but I think it can be done by making character skill count when you hit. Then it doesn't matter that player skill guarantees a hit, because character skills rules the world that is how you hit.

I haven't seen rob roy or princess bride, so I wont click them. I have the princess bride coming tomorrow from amazon, so I really won't spoil the experience, but if I like princess bride and the others are like it, I might buy them as well

I love fencing duels.

In any case, I think we're saying the same thing, only differently...if that makes sense.

You are probably the only person on this forum I've never disagreed with. Well said, the Elder Scrolls is an RPG series, and character skill is a major driving point. I personally loved fail chances everywhere (combat, spells, lockpicking, persuasion) and I really hope they are brought back.

I agree, those look awesome, more powerful.



Although I always figured that the character in Oblivion just mastered the spell when he bought it, I don't want some spells to be artificially locked from use, I didn't like that. If spells should not be locked from use, a chance of fail is needed, because you shouldn't just be free to tamper with powerful spells as a amateur, without powerful consequences. Powerful fireballs might have a chance to burn your hands, or explode prematurely. Stuff like that. All out failure of the spell should only happen if you're dealing with something waaaay out of your league.