There is one small island on the west coast about halfway between Thorn and Archon; there is also another longer island to the east (though still small) that seems to be part of cyrodiil.

They are both rather small - vastly smaller than Solstheim. It would take some significant work to make them sufficiently content-rich for a DLC.

The most interesting isles with difference would be the ones from Hammerfell. Black Marsh islands are just almost some random spots that nobody knows if they are in the maps or not.

With all my due respect, I really don't see the point of Black Marsh, nor commercially speaking, nor lore based (compared to other places lore).

Hang on - it has great potential. It all depends on the skill of the storyteller.

Think "Unreal." Almost all the enemies were lizard-like. Fantastic game, regardless.

Those were other times...another era of videogames. And the lizards were the bad ones, here they would be the protagonists. I really don't see it. But hey, not trying to change your opinion of course. Maybe I'm wrong and BGS will release a game based in cats or reptiles being the leading actors.

EDIT: And yes, Unreal was one of the best games ever.

I agree with Raziel about the problem with too much lizard-folk in the game. All the lore aside, it simply won't sell. The Black Marsh as a province could be interesting, no question about that. But the first thing BGS has to do is find away to make most of the argonians "disappear". One way to do this would be to drive the argonians on the verge of extinction, and the players job, alongside rescuing the world, would be to solve the extinction problem. This could be tied to the hist, and thus to the main plot, if the hist has an essential role in the story, as it probably will. The brilliance of this approach would be the fact that restoring a race to its former state would take a long time, so there would be a reason for the argonians absence for the duration of the game. In addition, this would provide an opportunity to have more of the other races present, because at least the dunmer and the empire would try and take full advantage of the weakening strenght of the argonians by invading the province.

My guess is that Bethesda split their team in two parts years ago and have been building both ES6 and Fallout at the same time. E3 will be the announcement for both with one coming coming Christmas and the other march-June 2016

When it comes to marketing a Black Marsh game, I think they should emphasis the danger and strangeness of Argonia and the Saxhleel. Look at Argonia from a Cyrodiil's perspective, then travel the land and get a good sense of its culture, its people, its dangers. Trailers showcasing battles between Imperials and Argonian auxiliaries against other Argonians, a deadly armored Wamasu sealing the fate of the Imperial forces. Or a Dunmer protagonist for a trailer, facing off against a pack of deadly creatures in Arnesia. Or, to borrow from Beyond Skyrim's lore book "Heartwood of Darkness", a group of Dunmer fighting Argonians in some ruined city (Tear), only to fight their way to the heart of the city and come upon a Hist, a horrifying sight, creating abominations of the Saxhleel form, and perhaps some Argonian-like creature, looking nothing short of a Weredaedroth, rising up from the murky waters of the sunken district to meet them.

The idea I had envisioned in the original setting-concept piece was an inter-tribal war between the Saxhleel tribes, fought mainly by two factions. the An-Xileel - fierce traditionalists who's priest-kings interpret the will of the Hist to guide the nation, and the Archeins - a once powerful tribe that infamously prospered through collaboration with the Cyrodiils and the Dunmer. Seeing the threat posed by the rogue Hist - Hist that have for some reason become corrupted/removed from the Hive-Mind, launch an Expeditionary Force to Black Marsh to restore order, deal with the rogue Hist and install the Archeins as the rulers of Argonia. As such, the Nibenese settlers, along with the Expeditionary Force, along of course Dry-Skin mercenaries and merchants, would make up the bulk of the humans in the game. The Dunmer would have their own story dealing with the north and a guerrilla war to retake Tear by Great House Dres. Perhaps include Great House Sadras as well, a Dunmeri alternative to supporting the Dres, perhaps some sort of pro-Imperial/pro-Peace purpose, anything that would be good for business, they are the heirs of House Hlaalu's seat after all.

I also have this idea kicking around that the Expeditionary Force, due to a lack of men the Elder Council can divert from the border with the Dominion, is made up mainly by conscripted prisoners and Argonian and Dunmer auxiliaries. As for who leads them, I was thinking that the Elder Council drudged up a relic from the past, an order of knights disliked by the City for their zealotry, especially in the wake of the signing of the White-Gold Concordat. Seeing the signing as the Mede's betrayal of Talos, they may conspire with members of the Elder Council against this heretic dynasty. Yes, I speak of the Red Dome Templars. Perhaps a sort of "Talos cult" among the Red Templar leaders.

Honestly, I think the whole excuse of not being able to sell the game if it is set in Black Marsh because there will be too many Argonians and the "casual" gamer won't like that absolute bullcrap. I say this because I let my friend and his brother borrow Skyrim, and they are the definition of a "casual" gamer, and the two races they picked to play as were an Argonian and Dark Elf. Lets also not forget Skyrim brought in a lot of new players so going to an alien place might be a good way to see how well the game will do in that kind of setting.

TES main series games are always going to be positioned from a human-centric point of view. That in no way impedes Bethesdas ability to set the game in a beast province. Even Morrowind, as 'strange' and alien as it was .... seemed that way because they designed the game to be that way from a human viewpoint. Even if your playable character was a Dunmer, you were still an outlander and generally unwelcome in Vvardenfell.

To make a game in Black Marsh, all they would have to do is set it up in a similar way ... whether you're a human, a mer or an Argonian, you'd still be an outsider to the local population and it would be the whole 'stranger in a strange land' vibe all over again. It would be you against the locals (not in a warlike sense, more in a cultural one), and that in itself is interesting to people regardless of whether they're "casuals" or whatever. An agent from the Empire (or the Dominion), sent to the Marsh to uncover 'X' mystery for 'Y' reason. Easy to do.

Somethign to consider:

Having a game in Black Marsh or Elsweyr seem objectionable to a certain (probably sizable) percentage of the fan base is completely the fault of bethesda.

We've all seen how the argonians and khajiit have been portrayed over the last 3 games. They're interesting culturally, but not INDIVIDUALLY. They all..........look alike, essentially.

That's mostly because Bethesda hasn't made them communicative in a non-verbal manner. OK, part of the problem has been the very limited voice acting for beast races. But a bigger part is that the beast races lack non-verbal expressions - gestures, postures, facial changes, eye changes (pupil dilation, eye coloration, eye narrowing or expansion and so forth), skin coloration changes (blushing or becoming pale or the anologue of those) and so forth.

If, then, Bethesda does choose a beast province for a game, it will be ESSENTIAL for them to make the beastfolk 'relatable.' They'll have to have a lot of unique 'types' who are, to put it plainly, interesting and intriguing to interact with and watch.

Think of the Dunmer. The Dunmer look humanoid. But they're also freaky - pointed ears, blood colored eyes, ashen skin. Yet Morrowind was all about them and their culture. Bethesda MADE IT INTERESTING by making that race a fascinating one.

They'll need to do the same in a beast province.

It will be a LOT of work, but they'll have no choice but to do it.

Thoughts?

Three words for you. Mother. Effing. J'zargo.

I think that there is already a good foundation for both the Argonians and Khajiit within the games, and the Argonians have really shot ahead due to ESO. They're interesting, mysterious, and more than a little... Unsettling. The Khajiit on Tue other hand have some of their best development in apocryphia, which is of dubious 'Canon' at the best of times.

The lack of specialised expressions and movements, however, is their biggest weakness. Neither the Argonians nor the Khajiit have any really unique body language. Ears and frills are static, the tail just sways back and forth, and they really, REALLY need to fix those legs...

But then the problem is... That's a lot of work that translates into absolutely no gain for other races. Are the others secure enough in their appearance and characteristics to warrent all the effort going into the Beast Races?

Haven't played ESO. Glad to hear at least the Argonians get more fleshed out.

Perhaps there is a minimal combination of physical gestures and facial expressions which, when combined with more unique voice characterizations, will be enough to make the beast races more engaging and accepted in the next game. If the set of physical gestures and facial expressions is manageable, it might facilitate the transfer of similar things to the other races as well.

Anything that contributes to immersion is a good thing, provided it doesn't bog down the computing power available in the three updated platforms.

I'm not personally a fan of the idea of black marsh, although if they made it magical/mystical/colorful enough, I'd certainly be willing to give it a try. I just hope that it wouldn't be monotone or that there would be species variation within the cities. I could see black marsh being a nice place to go to perhaps after things with the Aldmeri Dominion cool down or some sort of change happens in Tamriel.

My top pick would likely be Valenwood or Hammerfell.

I feel like Valenwood would have a lot of landscape variation, with many kinds of forest oddities and beautiful/unique scenaries.

On the other hand, I would like Hammerfell about equally. Seems as if there would be a few forests and some icey mountains, in addition to the obvious deserts and arid dry lands. I could see them making Hammerfell look amazing if they gave it just the right mix of Egyptian and arabic/middle-eastern cultures. From a few of the TES: O screens, the Egyptian-esque Obelisks look really cool. I imagine BGS could do it 10x better.

Despite the superficial similarities to middle eastern societal constructs, I wonder if the Ra Gada will be more similar to, perhaps, the Mongols.

There's something about them that echoes the Far East as opposed to the Near East. Maybe it's the Ansei. I'm not sure.

While the Argonians are the main starts of Black Marsh, dry-skins and outsiders would also have to play a crucial role in the game world, especially when regarding marketing. While Skyrim was marketed norse warriors fighting dragons, Black Marsh needs similar, simple but eye-catching marketing. Coming on too strong with the Hist and the Argonians could also be detrimental.

To review what Black Marsh can offer: the interesting and different culture of the Saxhleel and their connection to the mysterious Hist, intelligent spore-trees that are said to be one of the oldest races in Nirn's history. The land: the former Imperial province of Black Marsh, called Argonia by the elves. A very hostile land, no explorer has ventured to the very heart of Black Marsh and lived to tell the tale. Argonian tribes of the interior, as well as various monsters such as the Wamasu, the Leviathans and Sea-Drakes, along with deadly diseases and perhaps even darker forces at play make traversing Black Marsh difficult.

Relatable/dry-skins: despite being historically hostile to other races, Black Marsh has been settled by many across all of history. Nedic tribes like the Kothringi thrived in Black Marsh, the nomad Lilmothiit built the now infamous city of Blackrose, infamous for its prison. The ruins of the Barsaebic Ayleids can still be seen across the Marsh, and the disputed-over northern lands littered with Velothi and Daedric ruins. While the Cyrodiils settle the western fringes of Black Marsh, probably around the city of Gideon and the southern coastal cities, the north could be plagued by Velothi tribes, Mabrigash and so on, a guerrilla war led by House Dres to retake their old capital of Tear.

Cyrodiils and Dunmer fighting with the An-Xileel, treasure hunters and pirates delving deeper into Black Marsh with their Argonian guides, in search of Murkwood and a legendary lost city. And of course, fighting giant monsters and combating eight-feet tall Naga raiders in knee-deep water. Underwater exploration and combat, as well as interactive boats and ships could be interesting.

I want Hammerfell as the next setting. I want to see Rihad and having the option to go there for the summer would be cool

Ya know, a clever and creative group of developers could have loads of fun making Rihad a resort town....

Ukeleles and slide guitars playing in the background, Don Ho crooning, people walking around with flower necklaces carrying weird drinks with little umbrellas in them........

No question, Bethesda needs to hire me for ES6

Of course, because there is so much unknown about Black Marsh, it is perhaps the hardest province to speculate about, aside from Orsinium. How would the cities look and function, the diversity of the population, especially in the aftermath of the Accession War and the rise of the An-Xileel. Would we see Dunmer coexisting with Argonians in the northern lands or Nibenese coexisting with Argonians in the western fringe lands? I'd imagine the ports would be where a majority of non-Argonians would be. When I say non-Argonian, I don't just mean non-Saxhleel. Apparently non-Saxhleel can safely ingest Hist sap, giving them a sort of connection to the Hist. So, while quite strange, I wouldn't be uncommon for dry-skins living with Argonians, ingesting His sap to keep up the connection, with immunity to the deadly diseases.

My other question is regarding guilds. We know of precious few factions in such a large province. There are the Shadowscales and their patrons the Dark Brotherhood, filling the role of the assassin guild. Could be quite interesting, since another faction - the Brotherhood of Seth, which I assume is somehow connected to the assassins, a cult that owns a major city of Black Marsh, and a front for the Dark Brotherhood. But that still leaves a warriors guild, a mages guild and a thieves guild. The Argonians supposedly have swamp mages, which could utilize some sort of water-based swamp magic, the sort that would prove useful in waist-deep water and underwater. An Argonian thieves guild is not too hard to imagine, probably influenced by the Cyrodiils, or somehow involved in the banditry that is so legendary in Black Marsh. Finally, there is the warriors guild. Lots of options there. The Blackwood Company originated from Black Marsh. Dry-skin mercenaries were utilized by the Organism to defend Lilmoth, specifically mentions are the Thtachalxan or Drykillers. There are also the Whet-Fang vampires.

And then there are the various tribes and political factions that make up Black Marsh. the An-Xileel, supposedly Black Marsh's rulers. Tribes like the Agacephs, Archeins, Paatru, Naga and Sarpa. Outside factions like the East Empire Company or Great House Dres and Great House Sadras. We could even see undead Kothringi, perhaps even intelligent undead Kothringi as seen in ESO, or Lilmothiit that are still alive, perhaps stalking the southern coast along with the Maormer. Id't be nice if we saw some Sload as well.

I think people need to think differently about beast provinces (and certain Elven ones). To put it bluntly, some things that we might expect in regular TES provinces need to be scrapped - Black Marsh shouldn't be easily penetrable for most players, especially as non-Argonians. The entire feeling of moving between player houses and cosy towns would have to be replaced by a sense of constant danger; they should keep everything as hostile and bizarre as it's meant to be, and shape the rest of the game around that. At the most, have some human/mixed race settlements on the outskirts.

Of course, this should be as part of a two province game, so that you can still have the 'normal' against which to juxtapose the Other that a place like Black Marsh is meant to be.

Look...even Kirkbride said this about beast provinces... http://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/2fpdq7/why_have_thalmor_renamed_the_archipelago_alinor/ckc9n0u

If this is official dev@Bethesda then it's no surprise, the beast races are always underrepresented, last minute addition (Morrowind) and generally 3rd world citizens for comic relief. If Bethesda was serious about the beast races they wouldn't be just humans in costumes.

Well, Kirkbride may not be employed at Bethesda anymore, but he's the guy responsible for much of the TES lore and who still works with Bethesda from time to time. Kirkbride surely knows about the direction the series is going, so his words are as close to Bethesda's stance as it gets(because Bethesda would never tell us these things).

Goddamit this thread was so interesting with all the Black Marsh speculation going on and then Kirkbride out of nowhere ruined it!

Maybe that's the way Kirkbride wanted it, and when he didn't get his way, he left.

If, as he wrote, TES was supposed to be about the subjugation of Man by Mer, then Hammerfell would have lost to Alinor in the Great War, and Cyrodiil would not have been retaken by a combined Nord-Imperial army. Also, the Dunmer would not be so crippled as they are now and would not have lost a chunk of southern mainland Morrowind to the Argonians.

In fact, maybe Bethesda is reviving some of Kirkbride's ideas and reshaping them - hence the rumors about an Argonia-based game.

We shall have to wait and see.