I understand your passion, but I disagree. Virtually everything on the threat of the Thalmor is speculation or vague quotes from former developers. There's nothing in the novels, or Skyrim, to indicate that they are anything but a political threat. The community has built them up to be far, far more, but there has never been any solid evidence from the source material to support it. Espionage and the Dominion military are literally all that they have shown.


There's still far, far more room to work with the Thalmor, and they serve as a good consistent vien for political schisms throughout every remaining province. Cutting that thread too soon would be a waste of a good villain. Like killing Blowfeld in Casino Royale.

I'm with Lachdonin on this, I certainly don't want the Thalmor to go to waste, and just be out of the picture like that. I want multiple TES games where, the Thalmor are the dominant power, effecting the plot of TES 6 and beyond, and this time it's mostly the Thalmor building up bases in other provinces.

I like the thought of Summerset Isles, though I don't want the Thalmor to be going away any time soon either, they're newer and a lot more interesting than a lot of antagonist factions, and I also find them to be a refreshing break from the Imperial Legion as a dominant force, not any better than the Imperial Legion morally, but rather a refreshing break of something new.

Of the Human provinces, Hammerfell has the best chance of offering something distinct from what we've seen. They're the most 'Alien' of the Humans because they have little to no Atmoran heritage. The Redguard are also the only people whose magical sciences are likely to rival the Altmer, even if most of it is likely burried under the desert (they seem to have declined in their knowledge since the Ra Gada beat the ever loving tar out of everyone).


While they distrust mages, they are also probably the most mystical of the Human cultures, weaving magic in very different ways than the conventional Mages Guild approach. They also are based in the concepts and reflections of many of the world's non-western cultures (as were the Dunmer) so as long as that's played up they offer ample opportunity to be exotic without presenting an.environment that is too complex to handle yet (as I would expect Blackmarsh and Valenwood to be, unless they went ESO-boring with them).


My main concern with Hammerfell isn't it's potential to be exotic, but rather that it would be an overly simplified parody of Arabic (and almost certainly an insensitive one) and lack the range of influences and traditions that the PGE indicates. A combination of Age of Sail, Egyptian, Medieval Muslim, Mongolian and a touch of Tebetian, with peripheral tribal groups (in a similar vein to the Ashlanders) who draw inspiration from central Africa (such as the !kung) and some of the populations if the Philippines and New Guinea (such as the Wabe and the Troprianders)...


Anyway, the point being, I think the biggest risk with Hammerfell is in execution, not potential. But thats the same risk that runs with every province. But Hammefell has an advantage in that people don't EXPECT it to reinvent the wheel, or even compete with Morrowind in terms of exotic atmosphere, so there's less to lose for a lackluster execution.

Agreed with Lach once again 100%.


In regards to magic, people often also forget the school of Jhunal. I don't think that you'd see a distrust of magic entirely in Hammerfell. Rather, I think that distrust would be relegated towards "non-natural" magical arts. Plus, if done like in Morrowind, the Crowns, Forebears, and Lhotunics could act as archetypal guilds instead of purely 100% political factions. The Crowns could maybe provide the bulk of Hammerfell's standing army, the Forebears could handle more mage-oriented efforts or supply battlemages, and the Lhotunics could perhaps focus on covert operations or the naval efforts of Hammerfell's ruling entities. I'd personally like factions in a Hammerfell game to emphasize roleplay avenues and a sharp contrast between more staunchy Yokudan factions that echo much of Hammerfell's isolationist/independent policies, and more neopolotan/non-traditionalist guilds. I'd even like to see a contrast between the Yokudan temple and Imperial religious factions. I've also been playing around with an idea in my head of The Order of Diagna being more of a neopolitan warrior/knightly faction, and the Host of the Horn being somewhat of a Yokudan purist faction that is terroristic towards factions/settlements that don't adequately reflect a traditionalistic Yokudan culture.


Then if they added in factions such as a nordic faction in Dragonstar that is aching to gain control over the area for its nordic population, or the potential presence of Nova Orsinium, which may be seen as a potentual threat by the Crowns/more traditionalistic factions or a potential ally by the Forebears or less traditionalistic guilds.


But yeah, this would be the idea way for me that they could pull off factions in a Hammerfell game. Basically an often separate, yet inter-related conflict of interests between traditionalistic Yokudan cultured factions and non-traditionalistic, more worldly factions, and all of the differences that their ideologies bring, with maybe even some chances to effect Hammerfell's policies through the many potential allegiances, with maybe even some middle roads (Lhotunics).


I also mentioned this awhile back, but I'd enjoy seeing players have the option between choosing the Ansei or Hiradirge during a main questline bent around sword singing. I still like the idea of the Devotees being a death cult bent around worship of Satakal, but I'd personally like both factions to represent two different philosophies to saving the world. The Hiradirge route could be more bent on tapping into the power of sword singing through embracing its violent and destructive nature. So basically, doing "good" by taking a more egoistic approach and using more of the "dark side" of sword singing. The Ansei could be more about protecting people and using the more defense-oriented or protective sword singing abilities, or basically the more "light side" of sword singing. Basically, doing good by more altruistic and less destructive means.

One thing that Morrowind alluded to but never really came into play is that the average Dunmer distrusts magic that hasn't been approved by the Temple. That the Telvanni embrace all forms of magic was supposed to help set them apart and tied in with their irreverent attitude. Unfortunately, this never really came across well and was extremely easy to miss, hidden away deep in the dialog trees. A Hammerfell game could give the average Redguard a similar similar view of magic, though hopefully making it more apparent.

Yeah, I'd definitely enjoy that. A faction like the school of Jhunal might be a more Yokudan/strict magic guild, maybe almost druidic and based on Yokudan magic. A faction like the Blackcasters could perhaps be a less strict faction that sort of just does whatever they want. The Forebears themselves might be more about using magic for political reasons, while attempting to not take things too far. Then there could be a more sinister group like the Worm Cult which comes back and is reviled by most of Hammerfell, due to the region's aversion to necromancy, which might be something that even the Blackcasters don't really overtly encourage. I'd also like a plot where maybe another person is trying to mantle Mannimarco, and we could perhaps even gain the ability to take the mantle ourselves based on our decisions.


But yeah, regardless of the details, I'm not a fan of only having one guild per archetype.

Given the little lore we've seen, it seems to me like they dislike most if not all forms of magic, but dislike some more than others. And perhaps more importantly, they consider magic something that you're weak or wicked if you use it. Not unlike Skyrim.

As Lach said, they seem accepting of certain kinds of magic. I think it would (if the cultures were developed properly) depend on the region of Hammerfell one is in, who controls it, and the kind of magic being talked about. I feel that the Forebears would be more open-minded to more elven magics, while I feel like the Crowns and plausibly the Lhotunics would be still accepting of more Yokudan magic, but probably not other forms. Necromancy would probably be prominently reviled in most areas though. I'd imagine the Sload would also be problematic for the people if Hammerfell's coastal areas. There's also the fact that sword singing itself would be considered a kind of magic, and I imagine even the highly Yokudan factions would support it.

Well there is:http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:Wind_and_Sand_%28book%29

I'd really like dune dwellers in a Hammerfell game to be portrayed similarly to ashlanders in Morrowind. It could also serve to emphasize the divide between Yokudan cultures and non-traditional ones. Different sub-tribes with maybe some differing views would be nice as well.


I also think that the abundance of ocean in the region could make water magic interesting to learn more about as well.

I agree on this. Of the remaining provinces, Hammerfell the one that is by far most similar to the one we most recently visited, and I feel it'd be better to visit someplace radically different.

The problem I have is that the Thalmor are a very, very nasty bunch, and I'd rather not spend several games where the setting becomes dark fantasy (which it will become if the Thalmor take over), because between The Witcher, Dark Souls, and Dragon Age, that's been done to death in recent years, and I don't want TES to become grimdark as well.

TES has always been a dark fantasy. It just puts on a shinier coat to hide the tumours underneath. Torture, [censored], cannibalism, racism, genocide... These have been persistent elements of the world since day one, and only became more prominent with the post-Daggerfall rewrite.


What we've seen of the Thalmor is no worse than what we've seen elsewhere. Generally more gentle, in fact. The absolute worst we've seen of then is their torturing of a few people. Whoop-Dee-doo. The Nords exterminated most of a race, and no one's clamouring to have a whack at them.

I actually feel that High Rock and Alinor would be less alien than Hammerfell. If I were to rank the areas in terms of how alien they are/are likely to be, I'd say (from least to most alien):


Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock, Alinor, Hammerfell, Elsweyr, Morrowind, Valenwood, Argonia.


I agree with Lach about TES being a dark fantasy. I... can't really think of any way I'd prefer for it to be, either.


I personally really like the presence of the Thalmor currently. I'm a huge fan of cold war type scenarios, filled to the brim with espionage. I've also always felt that my favorite quests in TES were quests involving politics, espionage, corruption, or conspiracies. There's a mind boggling amount that could be done with quests that fall into these genres, especially for highly politically stratified areas of Tamriel. I feel that High Rock, Hammerfell, Alinor, and maybe Argonia have the best potential for interesting political factions.

For whatever flaws old systems had, the Empire as of TES III treated all races as equals and gave them opportunities and privileges that you'd never see in other fantasy settings, such as a High Elf Potentate or a Dark Elf empress, and generally ruled fairly, abolishing slavery, enforcing freedom of worship, and occasionally looking the other way when forced by a treaty to abide to an inherently unjust law. The Thalmor aren't just another shade of gray, they are deceitful frauds who murder those who disagree with them, who inconvenience them, who are racially impure, and those who don't like them, and quite possibly- as evidenced by Delphine's and Ancano's dialogue- may be trying to end the world- and if you believe any of the out-of-game stuff, also annihilate humanity. The Nords we saw in Skryim were not the genocidal dragon worshipers of yesteryear, nor were the Imperials we saw in in Cyrodiil the genocidal monotheists of yesteryear. The Thalmor, on the other hand, exemplify every nasty element their culture's history can dredge up and then some, and so far, have been shown to have no redeeming features.

Oh, I agree about the Empire. For whatever ills it's had, it's been the more stable, prosperous and egalitarian leadership Tamriel has ever had. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have it's dark side.


Just look at it a founding. A Breton (or possibly Highrock-born Nord) lies about his heritage, makes a pact with a Draugr, murders his king and leads a selfish campaign of conquest across the continent. In the process, he kills most loyal friend, lies to his generals, forces an abortion on a young woman, and unleashes the worst War-Crime imaginable on his enemies (The Numidium).


The Empire was FOUNDED on deceit, murder, genocide and a literal crime against reality. It marginalised those who didn't support it made backroom deals that sold its own people into slavery, went through several periods of internal turmoil that plunged the entire continent into war, and actively supported enemies of one race or another (Potema backed the Maormer invasion of Summerset).


From what we've seen of the Thalmor, they aren't that bad. They are an opposing political force that has not been shown doing anything worse than the Empire (either the Mede or the Septim) or the Provincial ncials, which has an air of racial superiority (which has been seen in Imperials, Dunmer and Nords over the last 3 games) and whose only overtly known goal is the Elven dominion of Tamriel (something they are frankly owed at this point).


I mean, sure, they're dikes, but at this point they don't even remotely warrant the threat required to focus a game on. The Villain Chair hasn't even been sized for their butt yet.

I think you're greatly blowing Talos' actions out of proportion. Much of his life and actions remain ambiguous and Numidium was not a war crime, but an efficient superweapon- if he didn't use it, he'd probably get accused of being a butcher who deliberately sent legions to their deaths against the Dominion when there was an alternative to win the war without needless casualties on his end. Furthermore, he re-established the divine covenant protecting Tamriel.

The Thalmor purged anyone of impure blood, deceived their own people to raise themselves up as false heroes (Talos' birth aside, he really was a Dragonborn whose achivements were real- the Thalmor stole credit from Martin, and probably orchestrated the Void Nights), killed anyone who didn't like them at all, and are trying to eliminate the worship of a god for either a petty or a world-theatening purpose. The Dominion itself could potentially be benevolent, but the Thalmor are so fixated on elven supremacy and racial purity that there's no way to spin the Thalmor as anything but the worst non-Daedric thing to afflict Tamriel since the First Age. Even if they aren't aiming to wipe out humanity and destroy the world, a regime under the Thalmor's rule would be akin to- if not worse than- the Tevinter Imperium at the peak of its power and decadence, and anyone so much as criticizes the government or suggests that humans and beastfolk be treated as equals will be murdered, any elf who mates with a non-elf or is born from such a tryst will be murdered, anyone who thinks Talos is a god will be dragged off, and the long lives of elves will ensure that those who exemplify those terrible ideals will be in power for a long, long time.

The Thalmor have some other flaws, too, like no freedom of religion; they murder Talos worshipers and who knows what they do to people who worship other deities. The Empire, however, allows freedom of religion despite having a state backed religion. Even worshiping the more unsavory Daedra is legal in the Empire. They also meddle in the affairs of other independent governments more than the Empire does at present (the Skyrim Civil War being a succession and secession war and therefor still part of the Empire), taking Valenwood by coup and Elsweyr by coup and propaganda.

They do want to destroy the Mundus and believe that by doing so they will free their Aedric souls and ascend to the level of the et'Ada. This meshes well with Altmer beliefs and may be correct, but more likely will just get them and everyone else killed. That they consider the erasure of all other sentient life an acceptable price for godhood is also a strike against them, in my opinion.

EDIT: I think Tiber may have seen the Numidium as being like the intent of nukes at the end of World War II, a weapon that causes great damage now so that fewer people die overall. Like dropping the bombs on Japan, whether this was justified is endlessly debatable.

The cleansings in Valenwood, the Night of Green Fire ,assassination of Political enemies ,etc. I don't really see those as "not that bad".And we haven't seen how they work in Dominion territory.

A lot of these are intended to mirror the Nazis and are pretty bad. I would say that we need more on-screen villainy from them, though. Let's be honest, how many people actually read all the in-game books?

And I think you're greatly underestimating what an absurdly.over the top [censored] Talos was, and how corrupt and manipulative the Empire has been. Heck, Daggerfall is about them secretly rebuilding the Numidium to solidify control of the Continent, and Morrowind is about them trying to use a religious Messiah prophecy to subvert the control of the Tribunal. The Empire has never been anything close to benevolent, it's just a lighter shade of grey than most of the others.


And you're also sorely underestimating what an atrocity the Numidium is. Every single time it's been activated, it's broken time, shattering reality into competing time-escapes and causing untold damage. The Siege of Alinor is STILL going on because of it. By using it, Tiber Septim doomed entire realities to eternal war and quasi-annihilation, and the threat persists in the primary reality that can drag anyone who delves too deep into the energies of those who are still trapped in the shattered causaility it caused. He basically dropped a nuke on Alinor with radiation that lasts forever.


First off, if we are to delve into the out-of-game information on the Thalmor... They are not racial supremacists. They hate EVERYONE. Altmer, Dunmer, Nord, Argonian, Sload, Sleever. Anything that lives and dies is a plague upon the perfection that they seek to return to. They are the embodyment of self-loathing, and want nothing more than to be rid of Mortality altogether.


Second, I never said they were good people. Just that they haven't done anything worse than what we've seen from others. Religious persicution is surprisingly normal in the Empire, there have been numerous campaigns against the Orcs, the Argonians and the Reachmen (the first and last generally because they were viewed as savage degenerates) and more than a little politically heavy-handed behaviour.


but the core of the issue is, they've done NOTHING to put them in the same camp as Jagar Tharn, Mannimarco/Underking/Numidium, Dagoth Ur, Mehrunes Dagon or Alduin. They've opposed the worship of a single god (in the hopes that doing so will diminish his power and give them the ability to unbind Time, but in-game-sources indicate that such a plan is doomed to failure, and that Talos is beyond their ability to disrupt) and lead an ineffective war against the Empire. That's it. Hardly the material to pose an existential threat.


Compared to the likes of the Hist, Satakal, Lorkhaj and the Ouze, the Thalmor don't have enough to offer as a threat yet. They NEED more building to make it seem natural, or anything other than heavy handed fan-service.


Not to mention that, as it stands, they're too Moustache-twirling evil. True, they haven't done anythi.g worse than the Empire, but they haven't had any redeeming qualities to counteract that. I'd rather they stick around for some sympathetic depth, instead of just getting the 'Due! Evilz!' sign and then being offed like a cheap villain in a Call of Duty game.


The only thing that the Thalmor have ever done to put them even close to the level needed to warrant a game-focus is the Void Nights. And that's IF we assume they were behind it, they've only claimed responsibility for bringing the moons BACK.

I don't think (as far as narrative goes) that it makes much sense for the next game to have us deal directly with the overthrow of the Thalmor in their homeland, at the height of their power. IMO, it makes a lot more sense to have that game set after a series of defeats in their territories abroad.

So you believe that the siege is still going on with weird time loops but not that the Thalmor want to annihilate humanity and destroy the world? I'm confused as to what set of lore you're going by.

It seems pretty clear in Skyrim that the Thalmor believe in elven supremacy, regardless of what lore we're arguing. And if we go by the weird stuff, it is clear that they want to remove mankind from possibility altogether.

Yet those campaigns were not perpetuated by the Empire. In fact, the Empire stepped in to help the Orcs.

They have done worse than the Septim/Mede Empire- their purging of those who are "impure", their purging of anyone who disagrees with them, even when they flee Alinor, and provoking a war in Skyrim just to weaken the Empire and strengthen their position in Skyrim, is anything the Empire has done, including what Talos did. If we delve into the weirder lore, their plans still surpass anything Numidium inflicts, up to successfully destroying Nirn (although admittedly, I'd be much happier if the weirder stuff was ignored altogether- I'd rather not the setting be doomed by default, especially considering how bonkers it gets). And more importantly, it is the current generation of Thalmor that is guilty of this- everything you complain about the Empire happened many mannish lifetimes ago, across relatively short time spans. The Thalmor have been committing these atrocities nonstop for almost two centuries now, and there's no sign that they've changed. This isn't some anomaly like Potema or Talos. This is how they normally operate.

The Siege of Alinor and it's repercussions are referenced in-game. The Numidium and it's effects are referenced, even viewed, in-game. While i personally subscribe to the Thalmor being a major existential threat (mostly because of their lack of comprehension than anything) none of that has been seen in-game. The closest to it is a single Mage who goes mad with power after tapping into whatever the hell the Eye of Magnus is.

The absolute LAST attack on the Orcs was opposed by the Empire. The Orcs were viewed as vermin and sub-human(oid) enemies up until the middle of Uriel Septim's reign. The 3rd Empire had plenty of involvement in their persecution. Ignoring 4 centuries of Orcs not being considered people by the Empire is like ignoring slavery in America.

Absolutely not. The Empire's done it all. It's slaughtered civilians, sold children into slavery (in Barenziah's case, she was originally being raised to be a war-trophy for one of Talos' generals) executed dissidents, restricted religious practices and been responsible for at least 3 reigns of terror and mass murder. It's no where near saintly.

Do you understand what Numidium is? It's nihilism made manifest. It's not just a threat to Mundus, it's a threat to the entire Aubris. In fact, of the threats in TES, only Dagoth Ur matches it.

Let's be clear about something. I am not saying the Thalmor are good people. But their regime has not done anything worse than any other, the 3rd Empire included. Even the Medes have used prisoners as fodder for the sake of making their first heir look like a hero. Tamriel is FULL of bad people, and they're usually the people in charge.

But how ethically horrible some members of the Thalmor may be isn't the issue. The issue is the danger they pose. They aren't, yet, anywhere near the threat level of the cosmic dangers which serve as a main story. Their a political threat with aspirations for something greater, but they're as much a danger to Mundus as the Dagoth Ur was in the 2nd Era.

Could you give me an in-game source on it- specifically, the part about the siege of Alinor being an ongoing thing? I'm aware of stuff like Warp in the West, but this is something different. Something that is tied in to the weirder- and grimmer- MK lore.

Yet blaming the TES III Empire onward for that is like blaming current America for slavery. And for what it's worth, they did a lot more for the Orcs than anyone else was doing.

Yet much of it were the exception, rather than the rule. People like Talos and Potema were never the norm for the Empire, especially not as of the events of the games. In the grand scheme of things, the Empire comes off as overall more benevolent than possibly any other rule I've seen going on Tamriel. The Thalmor, by contrast, do that sort of thing regularly, and continue to do so, without any of the Empire's redeeming features, and without any suggestion that the Thalmor's atrocities are not par for the course.

If we're going by the weird stuff, I must present this.

The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos.


-MK, Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1ptr0o/i_am_michael_kirkbride_ask_me_anything/.

That said, he also said the Thalmor will ultimately win (no doubt referring to C0DA and Landfall stuff he presented later), and I admittedly would definitely be happier if Bethesda did not go down that path. In fact, I'd be pleasantly surprised if the Dominion evolved into something that I can't detest with every fiber of my being.

The Thalmor commit their atrocities more regularly, more consistently, and without any redeeming features to anyone who's not a purist Altmer. In addition, almost two centuries have passed and there's been no sign of them changing their ways or becoming more benevolent. Now, the Aldmeri Dominion as an institution might be redeemable as a faction, but not while the Thalmor are in charge.

On a more optimistic note, if it is in Hammerfell, I'm hoping it'd include some of the local knightly orders from TES II as joinable factions. It was a bit of a downer for me how Skyrim had nothing like that, and I'd be especially interested in seeing how the whole Knights of the True Horn schism played out, now that Baron Shrike should be long dead.

It'd also be interesting if the Dark Brotherhood showed up, but as the secular, business-like Thieves Guild offshoot as described in Sacred Witness.