It might be premature, but a 'pack' of sorts that included many of the fundamental scaling visual/graphic mods, and some of the more essential landscape expansions would probably be the most helpful. That's what really helped me with morrowind, having a set of about 60 plug-ins that included all of those types of mods so all I had left to do was install gameplay tweaks and a couple extras. That way somebody with expert knowledge would be able to get all the load orders and compatabilities taken care of for somebody like myself who has to ingest large amounts of text everytime they install a mod because they don't know really what they are doing. might be too soon for that though, I don't know.

Psymon: that guide is mostly a graphics guide. Actually, it is a good base if he added options for the lesser computer (Never tried QTP Reduced Max, but I'd imagine that at that point it'd be better to use a different texture mod).

I found a great themed http://arwenevecom.ipage.com/Oblivion/OB-mods.htm recently. That was the type of guide I was searching for when I just started. Too bad I found it after all that struggle I've had finding/choosing my mod setup.

If you guys do end up doing this project, linking to these guides like these (as alternatives or as complements) would be nice.

Arwen's site is dated. As are most of them.

I posted that in jest actually - to point out that no matter how thorough - most lists will become outdated.

or that no matter what list is constructed that someone will always post that it is not enough or has the right stuff.

I was wondering why she recommended Real sleep/thirst/hunger + alcohol mod when Basic Primary needs covers all 4 o.O Guess BPN came out after she made her list.

Way after.

Arwen's site was good 2.5 years ago.

Realism mods is another area where there just isn't going to be agreement. Some still think real hunger is the best, Others don't even know about BPN or Masker's mods or Kuertee Eat and Sleep. There are so many choices the best one could do is recommend what doesn't conflict much.

There are mods we all use here ... RAEVWD, AWLS, AN, UOP, EE, EH, MMO ... but to do the list justice some would reverse engineer the excuse of using these mods as if there are categories to fill. This is easy for categories with no competition - then it gets complicated when there is a lot of categories.

Combat mods for instance. How anyone can recommend Deadly Reflex or that other one by Hex off when the threads are filled to the brim with problem reports is beyond me. On the other hand I would think that Duke Patrick would be a shoe in - others would complain it is too extreme.

Overhauls are another very contentious area. While we can say 'oh well we just won't recommend FCOM to the new comers' the truth is as soon as the new comer gets wind of what FCOM is (or promises to be) they are going to pursue it. Moderation in new comers is not a common thing. I have rarely met the new comer who didn't want to get the best mods (or again what seem the best mods) right off the bat.

They don't learn that things are far more complicate than they seem (unless they have modded another bethesda game) until after the fact then they will espouse moderation.

As a newcomer, I heard FCOM was the best, thus I tried all I could to get it. Any of the other overhauls were downplayed when put next to that one, so it seemed like it was miles ahead of the others. Now having been lead by the bit by forum goers about all the different overhauls, I realized that I didn't need a full FCOM to be happy, the other overhauls actually fit what I wanted nicely (not that I dislike FCOM, I think it's great! so please don't misunderstand me regarding that). So if you guys enter the overhaul area with this idea, please give really good explanations about each. The scaling guide was good for me to see the different stances overhauls can take which is nice, but it was kind of like 'here's a part of FCOM and it's methodology' 'there's a part of FCOM and it's methodology' and, oh, yeah here's FCOM. I get the feeling that was made early in FCOM's life when the different pieces were considered solid overhauls themselves (rather than now which says to use certain parts together if you can't deal with installing the real deal FCOM).

Personally, I never found any of the major overhauls like FCOM or OOO appealing.

Anyway, what is needed is not the recommendation of one over the other, but an honest, straight out appraisal of what they are, what their advantages and disadvantages are, and how they compare against each other.

Same thing with the various leveling systems. Personally I think OblivionXP is basically required, but a lot of people don't. So having a section to describe the most prominent leveling overhauls, and what exactly they change, and advantages and disadvantages compared to vanilla, would be useful.

Dark0ne said we can use the Nexus wiki. I'll be checking it out later, and perhaps create a temp page for starters?

My guide could use some touching up though tbqh

Again I was being difficult, but I guess most folks really do have good intentions.

Well I have a lot of suggestions for this, but I'm not going to write it.

If we can get a thread or something going and start adding categories and mods for them then I think it will flesh itself out more. But I also think scope creep will move this immediately into the territory of 'my install guide' instead of a universal guide.

Still better to write a 'how to construct a load order guide' I think. If Bg's Base mod list, Scaling overhaul and magic overhaul lists were updated then referencing other lists (running for cover, environmental) and a few categories for annoyance removers/game improvers then this could be sketched out fairly quickly.

I definitely want to keep this to a simple, universal recommended beginner mod guide, almost to a plug-and-play level. Enough to make the game interesting, with enough categories to cover the spread, and then links to other lists and threads that specialize in certain areas if they want to dig deeper. I ended up working uber late on an emergency project, so I'll have to check out the wiki tomorrow.

You could ask http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/user/176129-jac/ or Elaura to host this project on http://www.wolflore.net/ which also has public download for mods (AlienSlof has a subforum for her mods), but not the advlt rated mods without registration.

I've been snooping around the Oblivion section of Nexus Wiki, and IMO it looks pretty good. It covers a whole lot about modding. It also has a nice layout, good color scheme and all. I think your/our project would fit in very well there.

If at all there is a "problem" with NW, it is to make your project easily findable as the OB section is already quite voluminous.

I like your vision of what the project should firstly achieve. I guess the next step would be that you and your co-workers obtain editing access there.

@Psy
More than anything, newbs (excuse my use of the word) need more documentation written in plain English that explains how to do everything. A few people have tried this in the past with varying success, but I think the biggest issue here is that in general our community attracts people that are far better at doing things than they are at describing them. Too many how-tos get into technical details that are just bound to confuse new people.

I agree ... which is why a how to construct a load order seems a better approach.

Just listing recommended mods and then that will lead right into questions of installing (the mods FAQ still out of date), load order (BOSS still not apparent to new users as the main answer), cleaning (say what? - I have to install again), and then bashed patching ... and then other tools to install (tes4lodgen or the newer LOD tools).

Those are inherently going to be the follow-up questions.

Speaking of explaining things, this is the video age. Maybe the site should contain links to well made YouTube how-to videos with voiced commentary? A couple of months ago on a whim I searched YouTube for how-to-install-mods tutorials. The vast majority cover manual installation only, with no mention whatsoever of OBMM let alone Wrye Bash. There as a decent if far smaller number of OBMM tutorials. Wrye Bash coverage, especially voiced, is all but non existent. I unearthed only a very few. In one of those few the narrator makes a point of mentioning he hated it and used it only become one of his mods required it. Not much of an endorsemant. With so many folk relying on YouTube as their primary source for this sort of information, is it any wonder we see so many threads about installation woes here?

In other words, YouTube needs a Wrye Bash champions. Possibly BOSS too. I never thought to search for BOSS there, but don't recall much mention of it in the installation tutorials I checked out.

-Decrepit-

A site like this, I believe, would not do as much good as seems to be imagined--not enough to be worth the work to create it.

What does the site hope to accomplish?
Is it to do away with I'm new to mods please help me find mods threads? It won't work. Sure, there are a lot of such threads, but they get linked to lots of lists, and that gets them started. Having a good list to link them to won't stop the threads from being started in the first place. Or stop people from also linking them to all the same old lists as well.
Is it to have a really updated list to link newbies to, because we feel bad linking them to outdated lists? Not worth the effort, because if they remain interested in mods for more than a few minutes, they will find the Nexus and have all the mods they could ever want. The lists, any lists, are just starting points.
Is it for anyone other than newbies? I submit that the non-newbie user base for such a list is very very small.

In my opinion, what's needed more is an accurate 'map' of the most common ways people actually get introduced to using mods. If there are repeated paths, perhaps appropriate help could be created. I suspect, however, that it looks something like this: Big group of people hears about mods, goes looking on the internet. Half of them find a cool armor mod and immediately find that they do not have the computer savvy to download and install it. Almost all of these give up, perhaps after borking their game and making annoyances of themselves on forums. The other half find cool armor and post Help me threads. They are directed to various stickies and guides. Half of them give up. The remaining quarter of the original learns enough to install the simple mod. Half of them are content and never do more than occasionally find another cool weapon to add to their game. The remaining eighth are hooked. They use what computer skills they have, they learn skills they need; they learn their way around the forums, they learn how to tell good advice from bad; they learn the utilities... They are off and running. Half of them, or less, stick with their newfound hobby for some appreciable amount of time.

[removed irrelevant Morrowind comment] Oblivion users basically just need the Nexus. Sure, there are a handful of nice other homes for mods (TESAlliance being my favorite), but you really will find all you'll ever need at the Nexus. Thus, any list is just a starter tool until you find your way around to the Nexus.

My two cents. Not trying to be a killjoy, but I think what is being proposed here looks like an awful lot of work for not a lot of payoff.

Cheers.

I don't think it's that much work. I poked around the Nexus wiki, and what's great about it is that it answers a lot of questions, except for "where do I start?"

I think a simple title such as "Recommended Mod List and Installation Guide for Beginners" would be ideal.
For starters:
- A short list of simple mods to install that are useful with descriptions.
- Links to the main tools needed to install (OBMM, Wrye Bash, BOSS)
- Links to instructions on how to use the tools or do manual instruction.
- A video demonstration might be nice.
And then more suggestions after they have gone through the beginner set up:
- Links to other lists of recommendations
- Links to more advanced modding such as "TES Cleaning", that sort of thing.

You could make the argument that putting together this page of information is a waste of time, but then you could make that argument about playing Oblivion, or making mods for it. Personally, if people get on board with this, I think it will be a time saver in the long run once it is set up.

I agree wholeheartedly. And, I'm not sure that it's particularly helpful to compare this concept to past "recommended mod list" pages, primarily because most of those lists either were authored by a single person, or simply linked to (collections of) other lists by single authors. The primary distinction here, in my mind, is that this concept would allow the community as a whole to maintain and constantly update the list - which means, as long as an Oblivion community exists with enough passion to work on the list, it will stay alive.

I agree that the list should, at the beginning, focus on getting started in adding mods to Oblivion, but that doesn't mean it has to stay limited to a beginners' focus in the long run. I think a separate section could be set up for more advanced modding - FCOM, Dynamic Leveled Lists, etc. - that at a minimum would keep the community apprised of the current development status of said mods, who's currently working on the mod, what work is being done, where the current version is posted, where to submit errors, etc. This could be a "recommended advanced mods index" of sorts, in other words. Personally, I'd rather go to a site like that to quickly learn where MMM etc. is headed and how to get the latest copy, rather than to look through TESNexus, TESAlliance, Planet Elder Scrolls, and the gamesas Forums like I usually do.

What is this site supposed to accomplish?
Who is it meant for?
How do you imagine the intended user, well, using it?

Those are my questions. I'm not so much saying this is a waste of time. I'm saying that I think even 4 pages into the discussion that the goals are unclear, and , I suspect, off-target.

(My long-winded tale of how people get into mod-using probably did not help the clarity of my earlier post.)

Hi gothemasticator,

I think the OP spells it out, or at least what my goals are. I could have gone solo and just done it, but wanted to open it up to get an overall sense of need and get feedback. Everyone here is more than capable of deciding if the project is helpful to others, of interest to them, and how much time (if any) they want to put into it, and in what capacity. Folks who have contributed so far have brought up different ideas, some that are in alliance with those goals, others that expand or alter it a bit. And just about everyone has brought up fairly valid points in terms of pros and cons of pursuing the project.

Your comments so far have come across (to me at any rate) as more of a general "this is a bad idea, so why bother?" So if you are going to add something, perhaps you should clarify what you think the goals should be, and what you think the "target" is, or ask more specific questions that you would like others to clarify, rather than just nay-saying (which is how it is coming across to me). However, if you don't think it's worth pursuing in the first place, and you are not interested in being involved, then you don't have to participate.

Perhaps it will falter and die as some predict, as have happened with similar attempts. Perhaps not. I think it's worth putting some time into it. I have gotten a lot of help and support from the community over the years, and I would like to do a little something in return. And for me, this is something that is within my ability and time to do if others are willing to join in.

That's my hope. By having it on the nexus forums in wiki format, it will help keep it going. Wiki may not be the most "ideal" format in terms of structure, but those that are passionate and responsible will be very helpful. I like the idea of a different page for each mod "group" - one for beginners, one for advanced, one for expert. I'll probably just do the beginners one, since that's my main goal. With any luck, we'll come up with a reasonable template. I'm going to try and put together a "demo" page on my personal site this weekend based on everyone's comments and feedback. Once we get it into shape, then we can add the page to the wiki and open up a forum thread on it.

One thing about the nexus wiki is that once you decide on the name of a page, it's locked in, so that's something to consider, along with all the tags and what not.

If folks are interested in how the Nexus wiki works, here's the scoop:
http://wiki.tesnexus.com/index.php/How_to_post_a_new_wiki_page

I'm following the project with interest. I'll be currious to see the demo page. I think you are on a good path, saebel.

Video tutorials for Bash would be fantastic.

Wrye Bash, like many powerful pieces of software, scares people. It even scared me at first, and I'm pretty good at figuring my way around programs. Now I love it, and wish I'd started using it from the very beginning. But its just...scary. Its interface is less friendly than OBMM, and it has a lot of terminology thrown around "Bashed Patch", "BAIN", PBash, CBash, Python, etc etc. That people's eyes will glaze up and they'll run back to OBMM and NMM.

The weekend was busier than I thought it would be. I didn't make much progress, and I know there is room for improvement, but if you want to see what I've got so far, here's the link:
http://saebel.net/wip.php