Moderator: Closed for illegal discussion.

Under terms of the EULA for all gamesas construction sets, mods made with the construction sets are copyright Bethesda and must never be delivered for money in any way.

The idea is a non-starter, end of thread.

First off I don’t know if this idea has been presented before. If it has please tell me right away I would appreciate it.

Second I am not quite sure as to where I should have posted this thread. Since it has to do with the construction set I at first thought to put it in the mods section, however, the idea itself isn’t so much a mod as it is a redesign of how mods, for the next elders scrolls game, are distributed on the web. In the end I decided to post in this section.

Third the folling is a wall of text. Sorry about that but the idea is just a little complex and takes some explaining. If you choose not to read the whole thing that’s fine but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from posting in this thread unless you have, well, read the whole thing. Having said all that lets get to the actual post.

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The idea would be for the devs. to make a web site where mods are rated and then sold at a price based on that. Before you get bent out of shape and start furiously demanding my head to all and sundry please read on. I will give an example as to how this idea might work and then go into the details.

Let’s say that I have made a mod. I have put in a lot of time and effort into creating it and debugging it and to be frank I would like to get something back for all my time and effort. So I go ahead and post to this web site. A couple of reviewers go ahead and try the mod out. They play the game with the mod and also look for any bugs created by the mod. They then write up a quick review and give it a rate value from zero to ten, zero being horrible and ten being the best. Based on this rate value a price is set on my mod, usual a low one so that others will be willing to buy it. Ten percent of the all money made goes directly to the company that supports the web site and the rest goes to me the modder.

I know that this could end up being a horrible idea if it were implemented wrong. I have thought on it hard trying to come up with the best way to implement it.

When a mod is submitted, the modder must also send along some additional information for the reviewers. A summery of what the mod does, a detailed list of what exactly was done, a very quick statement as to what makes this mod so grate, and a section that tells the reviewers whether or not the mode effects the main storyline of the game or conflicts with or changes any other quest in the game.

The reviewers then play the game with the mode and see if it does what it is supposed to do. They then look for any bugs and or conflicts the mod may have on the game. Then it is decides if the mod adds value to the game. Then they rate the mod based on all of this and the amount of content the mod adds to the game.

For example lets say I create a mod that adds an all new faction to the game. I added a few cool looking buildings that serve as gathering places for my faction. Add some cool NPC members of my new faction and give them intriguing and memberable dialogue. I then created some serious, and a few not so serious, quests. Added a couple small dungeons to go along with the quests. And created a few powerful, not uber just powerful, and fun to play with items that serve as rewards. I did a good job at debugging so there are a few to no bugs. The reviews found the mod to be enjoyable and decided that overall it was a good mod so they go ahead and give it a rating of five or four.

As you can see getting a rating of six or higher will take even more work, maybe even requiring a team of modders to achieve.

Now that I have explained the rating system lets talk money. Overall pricing is going to be low. The main reason is so that more people will buy the mod. Here is the scale I am thinking of:
Rated AT Price
0 ------------ 0.00
1 ------------ 0.50
2 ------------ 1.00
3 ------------ 2.00
4 ------------ 4.00
5 ------------ 6.00
6 ------------ 9.00
7 ------------ 12.00
8 ------------ 15.00
9 ------------ 20.00
10 ---------- 30.00

Why such low prices? Well you can usually make more money if a lot of people buy your mod at a lower price compared to just a few people buying your mod at a high price. For example. Lets say you made a mod that was rated at level two. That means that it will sell at 1.00 dollar. Now lets say that 2,000 people decide they like your mod and buy it in the month after you release it. That’s 2000.00 dollars right there. Now take ten percent off for the company that is running the web site and you have a total profit of 1800.00 dollars in that month. As time goes by fewer and fewer people will by your mod but still you did make some money off the time and effort you put into the mod. These numbers are not exact because there is no way to tell in advance what mods people will buy and in what numbers but this should give you an overall feel for things.

As to the ten percent that goes to the people running the site, how else do you think the reviewers are going to get paid, any money after the reviewers goes toward keeping the sight updated, and any money left over after that goes toward profit for the company. The only issue I see with this is having reviewers giving higher ratings for mods in the hopes of making more money even if the mod doesn’t deserve it. This could wreck the whole system so this should be watched for.

Here is what I think each rating stands for in terms of the amount of content. Please note that other factors also determine the final rating. For example the mod may have enough content to be rated as a five but due to many bogs, lack of play value, and so on it may be demoted to a rating of four, three or even a two. The quick review for each mod will explain why a mod is rated as it is.

ZERO means that the mod is so poorly done that its pretty much worthless and will be treated as such getting a dollar value of zero.
ONE means that only a few things were actually added with this mod, such as an item or items like a set of armer, an NPC, a small quest, and/or something of that nature. Basically a small amount of content.
TWO is a mod with a little more substance. For example lets say you made a set of armor. Now lets say you created an intriguing, but fairly short, quest line along with associated NPCs to acquire said armor.
THREE has more of course. Lets take the previous example since it seems to work so well. For this mod to get a rating of three it’s going to have to have a much longer quest line, some fun dialog, add a few interesting dungeons, mix in a hint of a true challenge, and add just a dash of real style.
FORE would contain multiple quest lines, some interesting objects, some moderately large dungeons, give a real challenge, and have some worthwhile endings to said quest lines. This is a mod that a moderately good modder could do given enough time.
FIVE would have what four has and more. A faction might be added or some cool special effect or maybe a cut seen or two. It needs to be challenging and rewarding. And it needs to have a style of its own. In short five demand something more that separates it from a four. Something that a good, not a moderately good but a good, modder can do.
SIX demands a great mod made by a good modder. A mod that has more content then a four or a five and has a higher standard of quality then the previous two. To make a mod that will gain a rating of six is going to take a lot of thought, time, effort, and a bit more.
SEVEN is on the order of a small expansion and may need multiple modders. Again the standard of quality is high and just having an expansions worth of content isn’t enough. It has to be great content and few to no bugs or it gets a lower rating.
EIGHT is an expansion with its own land/area kind of like Mornhold in Morrowind. It has everything from new landmass/areas factions, city(s), dungeons, lots of new NPC, a ton of great dialog, hundreds of new object, awesome quests, and so on. And it’s quality can’t be lacking nor can it have many bugs or it gets demoted.
NINE goes beyond eight and is considered a truly epic expansion that everyone should buy. It so good that you just can’t play the game without it and you are left wondering how you played the game before it. I don’t expect to see more than a couple of these in the games entire lifetime.
TEN is on the order of remaking the entire game. It is either making an expansion that meets the standards of nine but is as large, or larger, than the original game or remaking the game from the ground up at the same standers as nine. Again if you make a mod with the content of ten but with lower standards and more than a few bugs than it gets demoted. I honestly don’t know if we would ever see a ten, period.

In the end I really think this would be a great move forward for the modding community, promoting more and better modding because if this were implemented modders would be paid for the time and effort put into their mods. If enough mods are made and sold then this could also become a source of income for the game company between making this game and the next one. Last with such a harsh reviewing and rating standard this can be used to find the best modders out there.

Bethesda releasing their tools so other people can make the most money out of it? :facepalm:

Never would I pay for a mod if such system was implemented, and never would I agree to be paid to mod.
And who would be the revewiers really? How could they truly review a mod and set its worth? And, most of all, how would the reviewers be able to review the hundreds of mods that get released every month?

Keep the paid DLCs to Beth.

Modding is a free world.

Paying for mods? NO.
....I would go into dept....

Its a horrible idea. Several reasons why.

1)Why, I mean, why, would the community be happy paying for mods that previously were free?

2)Who are these reviewers? Are you suggesting that Bethesda employ people to do the reviewing? They would of course need paying to do the work of downloading, playing and reviewing the mods.

3)Setting up such a site costs money.

4)Try looking on Nexus or Planet(Insert game name). See how many mods there are? Testing and reviewing just a tenth of those mods will take a lot of time. Creating a huge backlog and modders will wonder why their mod hasn't been reviewed and provided for paid download.

5)This is a really good way of encouraging other modding sites and modders to charge for their mods. Which is illegal since you cannot profit of anything made using the GECK/Elder Scrolls Construction Set.

6)Legally Bethesda owns anything made with their editors and using their assets (Custom meshes, textures and sounds don't come under that). So just how much of a percentage will they take? After all they have to pay the 'reviewers', the tech teams who will responsible for actual mod sorting and uploading and site maintenence and pay for the servers for the website.


7)It removes a huge amount of freedom and independence from Modders. A lot of modders prefer to host their mods on their own sites.

8)What about updates? Would I have to pay in order to get an update?

9)Ever heard of Master Files? I pay for and download a mod only to find that it requires ANOTHER mod in order to work, so I then have to pay for another mod just to play the first one I downloaded.

10)A lot of players play with a lot of mods loaded (Hence the ability to merge mods to get around the limit). Nobody has that much money to spend on that many mods.



If anything, this will do irreparable harm to the community.

I almost responded to this post, and thought, "uh, why bother writing what should be everyone's gut reaction to paying for user-created mods..." and then you wrote out my gut reaction, so I will pretend I am you and wrote this response I think we'll all feel EXACTLY like this about it.

Just going to add to what has already been said.

First off, I applaud you for putting work and thought into this idea rather than just scribbling something out and posting it quickly. As for the idea itself, just no.

People are not going to pay for usermade content in a videogame, let alone a single-player RPG.

• Much less in the case of a TES game, given the long history of freely distributed user-made content.

gamesas isn't going to go through the tremendous hassle of arranging the licensing and legal considerations to set this up, nor invest its time in administrating it.

• Especially when you consider that it could never apply to the console releases.

If somebody wants to get paid, they shouldn't be making mods. That's like expecting to sell fanfiction. If you want to make money make your own indie game and do it for real.

Bethesda would be making ten percent of ALL profits. The prices are so low that anyone can buy several mods easily without paying too much money at all. The real money doesn't come from any one buyer but from multiple buyers so the goal is to make a good mod that a lot of people will be willing to buy for a small amount of money. People appreciate what they buy a lot more then that which is just given to them, this is a psychological fact.

Epic no. Just no. For the reasons above, and many more.

I don't see this working out at all. Besides previously mentioned reasons, there's also the thing that modding would turn into a competition. Every modder for himself. There wouldn't be (m)any modder's resources and tutorials, because people making some good money selling mods don't want everyone else to be able to do the same.

Also because a mod is good doesn't mean it has to add much. I'd be more than willing to give a 10 to a mod that removes the 'loading area' messages from Oblivion, but I wouldn't want to pay 30 dollars for it. Not to mention the idea of having to pay for the unofficial patches...

And there it is.

The unofficial patches count as mods as do loads and loads of various standalone fixes. Should we be expected to pay for what is essentially a patch? OR should Bethesda start charging for patches too to balance it out?

Even if Bethesda took in 100% of the money I see this being a financial loss for them. The review process you suggest would require an enormous amount of people - QA is a pretty exhaustive process and if they need to put tons of mods through QA they'd need tons of people.

Granted, with Bethesda's costs so high they'd likely take a very large cut of the money (more like 75% than 10%) and then there would be less incentive for modders to use this service rather than just releasing them for free like modders do now. Perhaps there would be some point where this all balanced out well but I doubt it.

The ability to release lots of mods on consoles (where free user-made mods are not an option) may seem like a hook but all of this content would also have to go through the console manufacturers' QA departments, and I doubt they want to see a flood of content like this either.



A similar concept gets floated around a lot, that Bethesda release a 'best of' DVD of user made mods. While your suggestion removes some of the issues of a 'best of' collection it still doesn't seem feasible to me.

1. Most mods are going to be really cheap. Again the money doesn't come from a few expensive sales but from many inexpensive sales so the goal is to make a mod that everyone likes and is cheap. Second because they will be payed for the time and effort put into their mods.

2. Yes I am suggest Bethesda hire people to review. Ten percent of All profits doesn't sound like much until you look at the big picture then you realize that it is a lot of money when all is said and done.

3. As I have said ten percent of All profits is a lot of money for something like this setting up the site should pay for itself.

4. I have to admit that this is a valid argument but is it enough to through the whole idea out? Can't a solution be found like as the number of mod that are submitted increase the number of reviewers increases until the backlog is filled.

5. Your right you can't make a profit Unless you make a deal with Bethesda.

6. If you read through my whole post you should know that I advocated that they should take Ten Percent of All Profits which is a large amount when looking at the big picture.

7. True it will remove a lot of freedom but it gives something back in return.

8. If you read my post the more bugs that reviewers find in your mod the lower the rating despite the amount of content thus better mods will be worth more and won't need much in the way of updating while buggy mods will have a lower rating, cost less and if you choose to buy it the updates would cost less. In the review given for a mod it will state just how buggy it is.

9. Your right and a solution to that would be a requirement for every mod to state if other mods are required to use this one thus making it the buyers choice to buy it and other associated mods or not.

10. Do you have to buy every mod all at once? Small mods cost very little so you could by many of the smaller mods all at the same time and then buy larger ones as time goes on. Also the overall prices could be lowered a little or modders could agree to put certain popular mods into a package which will cost less but will bring be less profit for them.

But again, why will people want to pay for mods that previously have been availiable for free? Also you're saying that smaller mods are better, rather than epic mods like Glory Road, Gates of Asguard and Ivellion.



And is ten percent going to even come close to covering the costs? Even an official DLC requires a considerable amount of Q&A before it's even declared ready for release, thats a lot of time thats going to be spent on each mod uploaded = A lot of reviewers are going to be required = Ten percent is not going to be enough.



If you make enquiries to any site of the scale require (Try conacting someone at Nexus for instance) Ask them what their monthly fees are. Add to that all the reveiwers that will be required and as I said, ten percent is going to be nowhere enough.



So Bethesda needs to spend even more cash paying those extra reviewers? Again, ten percent won't even come close.



How tyranical. It'll still encourage other modding sites to charge and it'll encourage the pirates even more.



But it won't be anywhere enough.



Like what? It'll kill the community. As pointed out, they'll be no modding resources, no modding guides, possibly even no FCOM style compatibilty systems.



It's not just bugs that lead to updating. There's newer features added to a lot of mods constantly, look at MMM, Better Cities, FCOM and OOO. Projects like that are never finished.



Thus limiting the amount of sales on certain mods.




Try searching around for posts reguarding compilation packs and see exactly what the communities feelings on them are.

I'm sorry but it's a terrible idea. The vast majority of mods out there aren't worth paying money for, and the ones that are certainly aren't worth more than a few dollars. The small amount of mods that are actually good enough to charge over $10 for would be mods that nobody would ever play again. People are far too cheap. People complained and moaned about the price of Bethesda's DLCs for Oblivion and Fallout 3, so you can imagine the outrage that would occur as a result of Bethesda starting to charge money for mods. People have been making thousands upon thousands of mods for Bethesda's games since Morrowind, do you think people would do that if they were concerned about not getting paid for it?

Mods should never cost money.

As open-minded and fair as I am (for those who know me, I give you this smiley ) I have to say no, there are an unbelievable amount of problems in the idea. I appreciate what you're trying to do, but not only is what you are saying pretty much illegal and impossible, it would probably ruin the modding community for good. For reasons see all lengthy posts above me :deal:

you consider 30$ a low price? i can't think of a single mod i'd pay 10$ for, much less 30.

Besides getting payed for your work, your system essentially already exists. you upload a mod to Nexus, say what it does, and people play and review it and rate accordingly. If your mod is well rated you get more players, more kudos, and more reputation in the community. You should need any more than that for a reward, because quite frankly modding only to get cash won't get you very far. making epic quest/landscape/dungeon/guild mods takes immense dedication and love, something the hope of getting a couple hundred dollars doesn't replace.

furthermore, how would you divide the cash amongst members of a team? There is nothing stopping me from pocketing all the money for my upload even though many other people contributed. What about people who are uploading mods made in foreign communities or by members who have disappeared? fair distribution of money is almost impossible in such cases.

No, for all the reasons stated previously, and still no, despite all your counter arguments.

Points I'd like to add:
- Even with the more realistic 75% for Beth, 25% for the modder, you'd get professional companies taking over from the casual modders to make profit through this platform. Beth will not want that, and the modding community probably doesn't want that either.
- Most people aren't prepared to actually pay for any software any more. This service would be a flop. Even if you cut your 'very low' prices to 20% of what they currently are, it would still barely sell.

Experienced QA staff don't just materialize out of thin air, and I'm sure any modder will tell you just how time consuming their personal QA is - and they're familiar with the mods they're working with.

And if Bethesda is selling these mods they can't have any major bugs, which would make the "review" process far more thorough than I think you expect.


Yep, even Bethesda's own DLC are no more than $10

Well, I have released some mods, sure, but still I think this is an awful idea. I agree with the reasons said above and I would add some more. In you equation that states how much you would earn you forgot about taxation and that would be inevitable. Aslo (and I'm not sure about this, but it makes sense to me), you would have to give a part of your profit to all the interrested parties. Does your new armour use Havok - pay to the owner. Does it use Gamebryo engine? Pay to the owner, ... Like this, you as a modder would spend weaks making a mod and moths setting all the legal stuff. Also how do you want to set the value of a mod? Is a new mode worth more than a new texture? How good does a quest have to be to warant a higher price then a new mesh. If you make an average retexture, how good does a qust for it have to be to warrant a higher score?, ....

Also, when I first came to this community I was virtually stunned by the number of people willing to help a newbe with stupid questions. That would sure end if mods were for money (as stated above), the wiki would most probably be deleted and so on.

Many games nowadays come with a tool similar to construction set. If Beth started asking money for the mods of their fans, they would be the only ones on the market. That would seriously ruin their income as far less people would be willing to buy their game.

I do not know where you are from or how much money you use, but I for the life of mine cannot imagine a mod that would be worth 30 dollars. I'm not american and this ammount of money is nothing small to me. On my HD I have close to hundred mods, which means that i would spend something like 1000 dollars only on player made contnent. That is a ridiculous thought for me.

I often download mods only to find out that I do not like what they offer. Would there be refound? If not, I'm almost sure I would not download almost any mod. If there were, the ammount of administration would rise exponentially

I often download mods to re-use the resources in them. If your proposal worked, I would have to judge, if this investment is worth it. I have better things to do.

I really do not see any positive to this idea (yes, I read all your posts and I still do not), but I see and infinite ammount of negatives. And really, I cannot see anyone who would benefit form this

Although I have released some mods that earned some interrest in teh community, I would never ask anyone to pay me for them as I see them as very incompleat. Many of them are in a state of permanent rethought, so earning money for them would seem close to thievery from my point of view.

So, well, I will join the crowd and say that this is a very bad idea. The only thing positive about it is that it is so impossible that I do not fear Beth might try to implement it

EDIT: And I have forgotten about incompatibilities. What if you bought a mod just to realise that it is not compatible with another you have bought? Would you ask someone to try not just all the mods, but all the possible combinations of all the mods? If there were only 100 mods released, can you imagine how much trying would be needed to check every single combination? Someone who knows statistic better then I do would be able to tell you an exact number, I just know that it is A LOT.

Just like to quickly add to my last post, mods are never really 'complete' in the sense that it is finished and you can start shipping them off. Most mods have continuous updates, patches and upgrades, because as the modding community evolves with the introduction of things like OBSE or even simply when a modder returns from a long needed modding break, they realize that there is something else they want to add. Some mods that were abandoned, or rather 'completed', back in 2008 have started to re-surface, utilizing things such as the latest OBSE functions.

I agree with the others. I know from experience that even making a download cost one cent will deter it from a huge portion of downloaders than if it was free. People just don't like to pay for things, especially something like this, which was free before. The reduced number of mod users would significantly damage, if not completely destroy, the modding community. And even if a mod was so good that it deserves the $30 or whatever it costs, piracy will occur. As others said, this will also lead to more competition, less shared modder's resources/CS wiki type guides/etc. This is not even taking into consideration the costs needed for the QA team / the site / etc.

I respect your idea, but IMO it would be a horrible move on Bethesda's part if this happens.

Edit: After further thinking it seems to me the only way this could work if the modders got payment for their mods, without the user having to pay for it. But that isn't possible. A similar idea to yours that could work would be Bethesda organizing modding competitions, with the winner(s) receiving a cash award/limited edition of the game/life size statue of the adoring fan/etc. It would encourage modders without the side effects.

Speaking of piracy, the Humble Indie Bundle that was available a few weeks ago gave you 5 indie games for whatever you want, even a penny, but of the 138,813 people who got it, 25% pirated it. That's ridiculous, and if the mods have no DRM the piracy would be even worse because the prices are higher than a penny.

And don't forget that every anti-piracy measure known to man has been cracked, often the week (day?) of its release.

Closed for illegal discussion.

Under terms of the EULA for all gamesas construction sets, mods made with the construction sets are copyright Bethesda and must never be delivered for money in any way.

The idea is a non-starter, end of thread.