The only complaint I have, and it's minor so I haven't made a post about it, is that I think the companions in Morrowind were more fleshed out. They seemed to give much more of a backstory than those in Skyrim. But that is minor to me I just use Lydia as a pack mule.

More complex, and make the same mistakes that Oblivion and Morrowind made, no thanks. :rolleyes:

Sad news for those fans of "complexity" in an RPG. Complexity, as you define it, is on the way out. Putting points into categories is a thing of the past. Attributes and states are born of pen and paper RPG's played at table tops. These written stats were used to check dice rolls, since combat took place in the imagination. Early RPG's then adopted these same hidden attributes and skills, since their combat was also stiff and non-reactive. When combat takes place only in the imagination, as opposed to on the screen, die rolls are necessary. Increases stats and skills in order to increase the odds of die rolls was thereby a necessary part of pen and paper, and indeed of early electronic, role playing games.

Fortunately, we are leaving those days behind. More fortunately still, devs know this.

In TES - and any other modern, real-time action RPG, combat takes place on screen. I decide when to block, dodge, strike, shield bash, etc. My skill and timing decide whether I land a blow, break a block or even swing a crit, if the game is well designed and allows for it. Hence, I no longer need hidden die rolls to govern my choices. I govern my own movements and choices now, instead. So we can eliminate all of the hidden and half-hidden numbers shaking around in the Yatzhe cup whenever we pretend a stiff pixel swings a sword. Now the pixel isn't so stiff, and its actually swinging the sword. No hidden die rolls needed.

But now people whine about complexity. As a long time RPG fan, I don't miss the sort of "complexity" you whine about. I want to swing a sword and get better at swinging swords. To cast magic or pick locks and get better at those things as I do them. More important still, I want to actually do those things. Not roll a die and have a chance to do them, but actually perform those tasks. TES lets me do this, and I love it.

Complexity in an RPG Can be fantastic. New Vegas had this more right than Bethesda ever did. Complexity existed in choice and consequence. You could literally be good or bad - or something in between the two - and various factions reacted to that. Some choices cut you off from others. Some alliances meant more enemies and some fewer. Dialogue options could open new quests or resolve current ones in interesting ways. This is complexity in the modern RPG, not some hidden numbers game. And frankly, I for one love the change.

Levels and grinding are on their way out. I predict that levels and such will dissapear in the next couple of TES iterations. As opposed to idiotic leveled loot and shops, geography and difficulty of enemies in the zone will determine loot quality. I also predict different weapon types will have different perks built into them. Perhaps ebony is super durable and slow, but does high damage. Elven could be light, fast, sort of frail, and do lesser damage in exchange for more strikes per second. Things like that.

Levels and numbers games are old hat and a dying breed. Devs are beginning to understand that no valid reason exists for these things. Indeed, when I get hold of the creation kit, I always unlevel shops and loot lists. I also force players to look for good loot in dungeons, as shops will not have myriad enchanted and high level gear in my games. Levels are nearly done in these games and their end - and the end of annoying, hidden die rolls for the sake of "complexity" cannot come soon enough. Perhaps if devs don't have to make hidden numbers appear important for the sake of complexity, they can work on increasing the complexity of their game worlds.

Levels and numbers games are old hat and a dying breed. Devs are beginning to understand that no valid reason exists for these things. Indeed, when I get hold of the creation kit, I always unlevel shops and loot lists. I also force players to look for good loot in dungeons, as shops will not have myriad enchanted and high level gear in my games. Levels are nearly done in these games and their end - and the end of annoying, hidden die rolls for the sake of "complexity" cannot come soon enough. Perhaps if devs don't have to make hidden numbers appear important for the sake of complexity, they can work on increasing the complexity of their game worlds.

I don't know why all these Morrowind obsessed people don't just go play Morrowind instead of complaining that Oblivion and Skyrim are not like Morrowind. You have something like Morrowind, its called Morrowind, if thats what you want - go play it.

I don't know why all these Morrowind obsessed people don't just go play Morrowind instead of complaining that Oblivion and Skyrim are not like Morrowind. You have something like Morrowind, its called Morrowind, if thats what you want - go play it.

Have any of you noticed the extremely small number of weapons and armor along with spells and enemy types
there are in this game?

Theres like what 8 different armor sets? 4 for heavy and 4 for light, which obviously you either ever use one or the other, so
you wear 4 different types of armor in the WHOLE GAME?

For an Open world RPG to be so limited in whats actually in it is just ridiculous. Rename this TES: Modern Warefare 5 please,
cause thats what it is.

People are obsessed because it was amazing at its time. They complain because TES has lost grip on its roots and Skyrim would have been a better game if the skill and time were put in to give Skyrim Morrowind-like depth. They don't go and play it because now its ancient and besides, they've probably played it to death already. If you played Morrowind at the time it came out you would likely share the same opinion as me, however you probably wouldn't be able to appreciate it for what it is now, because modern technology is far better.

Theres like what 8 different armor sets? 4 for heavy and 4 for light, which obviously you either ever use one or the other, so
you wear 4 different types of armor in the WHOLE GAME?

I don't know why all these Morrowind obsessed people don't just go play Morrowind instead of complaining that Oblivion and Skyrim are not like Morrowind. You have something like Morrowind, its called Morrowind, if thats what you want - go play it.

What people don't understand is that Attributes offer depth.
I don't want to start a console/pc war. So just imagine Skyrim is platform independand and the CK and mods work everywhere. Imagine Skyrim is released like it is with Stats. Now I show you 2 scenarios that only work because of Stats.
Let's imagine you are a wizard and have high Int. Now you might get quests, might get other quests from the Mage Guild because of high Int. Because you now understand what the Wizard wants you to do.
Do you know "Face" from A-Team? Think you can go to a bandit hideout, get attacked, you yield and he starts to initiate dialog and you get some dialog options to get brought to the leader and you sweettalk him into doing what you want?
This is doable in OB and it is doable in Skyrim with stats.

4 types of heavy and 4 types of light....Lol, no. Hold on, lemme list some.

Iron, steel, wolf, Dwemer, steel plate, orcish, ebony, daedric, dragonbone..(Can't remember a LOT of heavy armor.)

Fur, hide, studded, leather, elven, glass, dragonscale, nightingale, shrouded, theives guild, guildmaster..

Etc. Etc.

I agree. Attributes build your character. Skills essentially determine how you fight. Removing attributes demonstrates how the game has moved away from depth and roleplay and more towards combat.

You're talking about a series that let you zap rats for five hours to become "smarter" or have more "willpower". What you're suggesting might work, but only if it was more D&Dish (once you create a character, good luck upgrading stats much) but that kind of curbing freedom really isn't TES. It's why the whole classes idea never worked so well, because you could become God of Everything anyway.

As it is now its tunnel vision one tier skill and dont you dare do anything else or the level scaling will [censored] you and ruin your game.

I dont see how thats any better.

why?

Complexity for complexity's sake is redundant.

And no, having the same thing with different names (katanas, chitin armor, whatnot) is not complexity

I agree.
People already have a hard enough time playing this game, I could see the forums now if the game was setup like Morrowind.
I swing and connect but no damage, why do I have to read so much. Why is it so hard to find a quest cave? Why does mana not regain?
I can't kill anything, this game svcks.

:shakehead: