Agreed!

ehm..textures aren't much better than what Morrowind had.

But things done better than in Morrowind (or well at least as good as in morrowind...much better than oblivion tho).
- world
- combat
- quests
- characters

Having more equipment slots and more names and designs for weapons are not complexity. Having actuall meaningful choices when we build and level our characters is. Spellcrafting does not change that in Morrowinds favor either. Conclusion: Skyrim is more complex than Morrowind.

Morrowind is the best TES to many people on these forums. It isn't a memory, it's something we still play and love all the time. Your logic is flawed.

Why is it when someone voices a legitimate opinion people from the opposite camp gang up and say some ludicrous comments.

Morrowind is not worse than remembered. Its down to preference. What the OP suggests is not complexity for complexities sake its having the aethetic and statistical freedom to choose a character which suits you. Having more slots would make it too easy in games. What a stupid thing to say. The game could be balanced as it has been done for previous iterations.

Guys, the OP isnt slating your game or insulting your mothers. The OP is just stating he wants more complexity and mechanical depth. There is nothing wrong with that. if you have a sensible reason for that ot to be the case then voice it. But replying with angry or hurt comments about how bad Morrowind is or how his opinion is automatically wrong when you blatantly dont understand it isnt really ok.

Try and figure out where the other guy is coming from when you want to argue with them. You might manage more intelligent debate then.

Sorry for the rant but whenever i see someone say "I like Skyrim but ..." or "Reasons why i like Skyrim" i see the OP get shot down by angry fan.boys/haters and its really frustrating.

Waits to be horrendously flamed for my rant.

There are some mechanics form morrowind that I wish were imported into skyrim. Spell crafting and the spells + spell effects, but that's all I got.

Now I think it would be MORE fair to compare Morrowind + mods with skyrim.

Characters; That's good to hear. What ~who are some that you mean (and what's interesting about them). Is it depth of dialog? eccentricity? Or that they can join up and be useful?

Again I doubt that the people complaining are still playing MW. We can agree to disagree, but if you play MW and then Play SR I don't see how you can say that SR is not superior in almost all aspects. YMMV but that is my experience.

Mostly the characters in mainquest and guild questlines are done better, they aren't amazingly done, but on Bethedsas standard i found some characters to be very well done. And its the dialogue what makes them so good. There are some companions to take with you to adventures but those characters are usually very shallow and don't offer much, far from games like New Vegas. Companion AI is also pretty stupid, and I who has never cared to have an NPC companion with me in any game, wish that they had left that part out of the game.

Well you have me there; I have not played Skyrim, but my estimations are usually pretty good. But I have to say that just by direct comparison of gameplay video alone, we would disagree. I don't actually see why Skyrim is a superior game in 'almost all aspects'. I will have to wait until sometime after the CS is made available, when I decide whether or not to buy the game.

*I am curious though what you think is not superior (since you said 'almost'). :foodndrink:

Good dialog can make or [lack of can] break an RPG. :foodndrink:

I agree. But only with the Spellcrafting Part.

But let me say: Spells in Skyrim are a lot better. Take oblivion for instance. The spells were bizarre. You had fireball. A ball of fire that HOVERS slowly and sluggy to your opponent. And never did enough damage to deal with 'em.

If you level up, the NPC will level up and stronger spells would not deal as much damage as it needed.

In Skyrim you can use spells according to your level and so on. And we got rid of NPCs leveling up with us. That makes life easier and funnier. It's good to sometimes kill a bandit with one hit, and running from a bandit highwayman sometimes.

I'll say it again - a lot of people here still play Morrowind. I still do regularly.

Morrowind has better Dialogue. I don't consider this a downside, Skyrim couldn't have had as much dialogue because of voice acting unless that was dropped. I personally prefer depth and more options to hearing repetitive voices though.

Morrowind had a bigger, more varied and more interesting map(interesting comment is objective, there was a lot more vairety and a lot more towns that all had more to do than any town in Skyrim though).

Morrowind had many, many more puzzles, artifacts, ect. and didn't have repetitive dungeons. This provided many more hours of play time outside of the quests that are already longer and more complex than Skyrim quests.

Morrowind had more factions that were all longer and better. Better is objective, still they were 4x longer and no one can say they weren't all solid.

Morrowind simply had more choices, even turning into a vampire brought a set of quest lines and choices upon you. It was a better RPG. Skyrim may be better on the action side but that's really what it is in a lot of ways..an action game.

I won't go into equipment/magic/skills/ect. Those are mostly an argument of preference between the action game leanings of Skyrim and the more RPG-like combat system of Morrowind.

I should have said single player RPG as we knew them, but how's Witcher 2 compare in "complexity" with Morrowind? See a common theme in the direction of RPG's these days?

In my opinion, it took 3 attempts for Beth to successfully transition from "traditional" CRPG to Modern day RPG. Morrowind had some traditional RPG elements with all the text and factions but you could see that it was moving towards a modern audience. Oblivion was the next step, but as we all know it held onto the attributes and leveling which ended up interfering with how great the game world was for it's time. Now we have Skyrim which I do think "meets it's objective" the best of the 3. There is a reason why Daggerfall is coming up more now than it did over the past few years... I think it is because MW and OB were really tweeners. Not saying they were terrible in their days just that they were transition games.

Some people here are way too touchy when it comes to criticising their newest toy...

I can very well understand the OP's concern. TES shows a trend towards more "actiony" games.
Although I would still say that there are things in Skyrim that are offering more complexity.
Perks for one are a nice thing and give the ability to play more distinctive, different builds.
Shouts turned out nice, too, imo.

On the other hand I'm not convinced of the removal of attributes. Admittedly the way they have been in Oblivion, they didn't exactly do much, but the better solution to removing them would have been to give them some impact. E.g. Dexterity could give you some chance to evade hits, we could have special options in some conversations, etc.

And I do miss spell making, this was always a very nice option in TES games.
On the other hand, the out-of-the-box spells are certainly more interesting this time, thanks to the additional effects (like electricity spells also damaging magicka).

Sounds like another Morrowind purist rant. If you want to play Morrowind just go play Morrowind. Problem solved. :shakehead:

All the comments saying "Go play Morrowind" just because someone mentions something that was in Morrowind and not in Skyrim are missing the point. The point people are trying to make is that an already excellent game with admittedly much better graphics would be even better with the best parts of all three games combined. Skyrim is good but no game is perfect. Each new release they try new and different things. Some of the ideas work out and are an improvement over earlier games, other things just don't work and are removed from the next version. I miss spellcrafting, being able to increase my running and jumping ability, and levitation. I would also like an option to simply smash open chests with an axe or spell (breaking any fragile contents of course). I liked Morrowinds map better than either Skyrim's or Oblivions versions especially the ability from Morrowind to put named tags wherever you wanted on the map. Good for leaving caches of items so you could find them again.

What happened to the option to turn off the compass and fast travel, etc?? I remember people celebrating on these forums when it was announced about two months ago that it was optional.

There are only a few things I really agree with in this thread, as I'm not much for rose-shaded Morrowind glasses. The spears, crossbows, etc. Needs to come back. I'll agree. And yeah, why not a few more armour types? Sounds good to me. (Although really, I suppose there are in Skyrim. Wolf, and such.)

Didn't Bethesda make the armor simpler in order to render more NPC's on screen? I'd much rather have a more realistic world with more inhabitants than a possible set of Chitin armor. I'd also rather use a SWORD than a pair of bloody Tonfa!

My two cents on Morrowind: Maybe I played Morrowind too late, but I seriously don't understand why the threads keep coming back to it. The combat was awful, and while it had a lot of great atmosphere, it still doesn't come anywhere near Oblivion or indeed Skyrim. For the time, I'm sure it was as amazing as Skyrim is now. Plus Morrowind was as confusing as hell.

The thing is, I find that all the stats and numbers are distracting and disrupt immersion. I really like how Skyrim is feeling more natural than Oblivion in both the controls and removal of stats screens. I also like the map. I like seeing where I'm going and where I've been.

Fast travel is a great option to have for people who don't have hours and hours to play Skyrim. But it is an OPTION.

But, TES purists will always want better and they will always revere the earlier entries, which is perfectly understandable. Fans are protective.

So sure, have a an option called "TES Veteran Mode". But don't change the formula of a beautifully evolving series.

How about complexity for variety's sake then? You can't just ignore the positive aspects in order to prove a point.

I would say that Skyrim towns have much more to offer than MW towns. Some of the MW towns were more interesting and bigger but i don't really see how there was more to do in them.

I've seen just as much variety in Skyrim dungeons as i did in MW dungeons and certain ones in Skyrim blow away anything in MW looks wise. The Puzzles and artifacts were indeed better in MW though imo. MW was more varied though open world for sure though some of the areas in Skyrim look fantastic.

Faction quests I haven't decided what I've thought yet. The Skyrim ones are short but I've liked what I've seen so far. Though after they end i think Beth should have added more content.

If you are new to these forums, know that the MW vs whatever debate is very old and redundant.

Actual game mechanics aside, I think a lot of people that are unsatisfied with the recent ES games, when compared to Morrowind, are just kind of kidding themselves. Morrowind was probably their first introduction to a massive, interesting, open world filled with infinite things to do. After the initial euphoria wears off, everything is just kind of lame in comparison to that feeling you first got while playing Morrowind. You want that same feeling for each new TES game, but that's a tall order, since your pretty desensitized to it already.

I'm the same way with Fallout 3, it was my first Bethesda game, and my first Sandbox RPG. It was absolutely wonderful, I played it for a week straight the summer I had it. Nothing else so far has really compared to those first few playthroughs of FO3.

Morrowind towns had many, many more quests. Even most villages could match the 5< quests most Skyrim towns have. The repetitive go here do this quests that involve NPC's that don't even have names aren't counted here. I guess you can argue Skyrim has more side quests per town if you include those but that seems like a cheap excuse.

And Skyrim's factions are hit or miss really. The College and Companions quest lines are really fast paced and give you no room to breathe. You go from the new guy to saving the whole guild in a matter of two or three quests each. Thieves guild is interesting but doesn't actually involve any stealing past the first quest and the DB is the DB.

Morrowind had twice as many factions and some of the longer single factions in Morrowind were as long as two Skyrim quest lines.

THERE ARE DAI-KATANAS AND KATANAS IN SKYRIM

Also, there are scimitars and other random weapons. Morrowind only had spears and crossbows on skyrim. Thats it. And boo hoo. Who cares?? And having more than 10 pieces of armor is just annoying.

Well, it's just that the "cRPGs" are becoming less and less "rpg", as more and more key-elements of rpgs (at least as we know them on computer, one could argue that there wil never be a true rpg on computers, but I digress) are removed.

The best time for cRPGs (but that's just my opinion) was around the time the original Fallouts had been released, as they offered the best combination of gameplay, complexity and accessibility. The market has changed since then, although New Vegas offered some nice variety.



Not so sure about this, though. If there's one thing in Skyrim, it's lots of quests. There are many quests to find in most towns. I spend the first about 15 hours mostly doing stuff around Whiterun, including numerous quests I got there. And not all of them are randomized, either.