I try not to care too much about the negative and useless feedback. But this really made me spill my coffee, probably because it's the main source of mods for Oblivion community we are talking about. Apparently, TES Nexus has a rating system has a neat way for you to give a mod thumbs down. All you need to do is ... well, give a thumbs down! Simple as that. It is such a warm feeling for a modder, that spends a great deal of his free time and actually shares his work with everybody, to open his mod's download site and see people dislike it. If someone personally doesn't like my mod, they can move along. Simply deactivate it. And if they find something wrong with it - great, they can tell me, so i can make it better. But what is really not the reason i am modding is to hear you not liking my mod because of your personal reasons. Before i continue, let me show you what i am talking about:

http://www.shrani.si/f/2s/u/3s6VHP79/tesnexuspost01.jpg

The stuff marked with red bugs me the most.
-Anyone can give a thumbs down to your mod if it isn't compatible with the popular files. Do i mod to make it compatible with other mods? No. If it isn't compatible with some big, shiny, mainstream mod, i don't care. It is your problem, not mine. Does that change the quality of my mod? No. Why is that a valid reason for thumbs down? Have no idea.
-The second red is really horrible. My mod has to suit people's -PERSONAL- tastes or believes!?!??!?!? WHAAAT!?!??!?!?! This one is simply ridiculous, and greatly offensive to any mod maker. Do i even need to make an argument here? Everyone has his/her own personal believes. Everyone has an option to walk away if they don't like my mod. It doesn't change quality of my mod if someone has his little believes!

The stuff marked with yellow is questionable.
-If the mod is really useless, and it is impossible to make it work, it does deserve a thumbs down. But it's often people's own stuff that is the cause of the problem. I make mods, but that doesn't mean i am obligated to make them work on every OS, and i don't have to explain to anyone how to install it. Does that really fit as a reason for thumbs down?
-I am not obligated to make a description, neither to make a valid description. Deceiving descriptions svck, but it's the mod that matter.
-The file didn't meet your high quality standards? Ok, but how is this helpful to the author? How am i going to improve my mod with that? Also notice the -YOUR- high standards. Not general standards, but someone's personal standards.

Why am i writing this you may ask. I can just take my mods down, i can just disable the ratings ... I am writing this because i care. I have faith that TES Nexus can improve. It is an important site for the whole community, and i think this is really a negative feature of it. I suggest they make an explanation a must when rating. I would like to hear you folks. I am really the only one who sees the problem with the rating?
RedBag

No. I thought the new system might be worth something when they first implemented it as a way to put an end to trollish behavior. The results have not lived up to the expectations. You have more or less pointed out all the problems with the system as it currently stands now.

Some of the reasons they'll let you thumbs-down a mod were once bannable offenses, like giving negative feedback because you don't agree with whatever philosophy is supposed to be attached to the mod.

The issue of compatibility is something else. I don't mind if the reasons list something that can flag it as game breaking, but I do agree that being allowed to downrate something because it isn't compatible with "popular" files is a really bad idea.

the only issue I'm going to disagree on is the part about descriptions. Deceptive descriptions do svck, because they're deceptive. If you can't provide an accurate description of what the mod does (this doesn't require spoiling things) then you probably shouldn't be surprised when people get upset. Like if your description says "adds a village" but the mod really "modifies 10 leveled lists to add items FROM the village to the game" then I think people have a right to point that out as bad.

Those negative endorsemant message either need to be completely rethought, or the ability to leave negative endorsemants should simply be removed entirely.

Since the main reason it is there is to provide constructive criticism to the mod author and since it doesn't affect the rating, then I don't really have a problem with it.

Though, I wasn't aware of those options for the giving a thumbs down. Especially the things you highlighted in red. That's not exactly constructive criticism...

I've never gotten a thumbs down on any of my mods but I have to admit I would be a little upset if someone gave me a thumbs down on one of my mods.

They should just get rid of the whole rating system in my opinion, what's the point? If it is there to gauge a mod's popularity... well that's what the download count is for isn't it?

I brought up these exact issues when the system was first implemented, in the Nexus thread here. I had the same concerns about the same points and offered alternative suggestions.

I couldn't get the file to work

A comment or a pm and I could help you with this. I feel much less inclined to assist you when you down rate my mod before even asking for help.

After playing the file it doesn't fit my personal tastes etc

It is impossible to cater to everyones tastes, period and no modder should be required to do that.

The file didn't meet my high quality standards

I am very sorry but the truth must be said, unless you are an experienced modder, you most likely have no idea what is trully capable in the CS and therefore cannot make an educated assessment of the standards of someone elses mod. Not to mention...why the heck should I cater to other peoples standards.

The file caused conflicts with game/popular mods

The issue of compatibility makes me foam at the mouth, it is impossible to make a mod compatible with every other mod out there and why should we. Sorry but I am doing this modding for a hobby, not a job and I will not waste my time worrying about compatibility because it would dampen my creativity.

I will admit that while I had every intention of releasing my newest mod on PES and Nexus, in total honesty the rating system gives me much pause and I am yet undecided about releasing there.

Here we go again!

The way I see it you cannot please everybody with any system where people want to rate and criticize those who do not want to be rated or criticized.

Can't you turn ratings off for your mods?

to me Nexus already showed its bias by kicking people off their forum for rating - by using those same ratings even.

Maybe the answers for each mod maker to choose form a list of options only the criteria that they wish to be rated for. Then everyone will see that rating the mod is not really an indication of anything anyway.

===================

I'd add that compatibility is the number one concern I have for a mod (after whether I think it is cool).
So maybe not a rating for compatibility, but a warning?

Don't want to risk negative ratings, then disable ratings. Problem solved.

Remember that you could get banned at tesnexus for voting something as an 8/10... that's why the current system, bad as it may be, was put into place. So at least people now have a little chance to express their opinion (the less than optimal choices were put into place to prevent people getting banned for mentioning completely legitimate issues, as happened a lot in the past).

If you don't want to risk negative ratings, disable ratings.

As Psymon said, "here we go again". Me not. I won't say more. Well, maybe one thing: People not happy with a mod shouldn't be forced to select a reason. This would solve all issues. Remember, any kind of ratings are there to inform potential players, not the modder. As a modder, you want text.

I really liked the old rating system, the one with the rating from 1 to 10. Of course there were a few people that just gave 1's for no good reason, but it was easier to separate the high quality and low quality mods from each other. I don't like this endorsemant thing, because a mod can't have a 7 anymore now. People will now just always give a thumbs up, because people usually don't choose for a thumbs down(Except if they are trolls, but they are still greatly outnumbered). This way the rating and quality of the mod is less detailed then it used to be.

May as well just keep my mods on ORE then. I was considering placing them on other sites because I wouldn't mind a little bit of feedback for something I have worked on for two years now. It would be nice to get a thumbs up out of appreciation, but if I got a thumbs down because my mod conflicts with Lost Spires (And it does) I would be livid. Believe me I would get a lot of thumbs down because of that conflict, after all Lost Spires is a 'popular' mod.

Thinking on that, that settles it. Definitely not releasing there.

Sorry but 'disable the ratings' is not an acceptable excuse at all. The system was bad before, but that doesn't mean that it should be accepted now just because it was bad before.

As for 'here we go again'. We are going again, because there is a problem here. I would rather modders talked about issues rather then turn around and leave silently.

I think it is still a valid argument, something we should be concerned about. I know i can disable the ratings, i stated i am aware of that. But the ratings are still an indicator of quality, at least that is what it's purpose is. For people to quickly see a mod with lot's of thumbs up or down, so that they can quickly determine quality of that mod, at least roughly. I also like the first implementation, because people really tend to rate mod either extremely good or extremely bad. But making it possible to rate mod negatively for the reasons stated above is ridiculous.

It is not an argument if i want to risk a negative rating. I want the ratings to exist, but i want them to serve their purpose. To determine quality of a mod that is.

I don't recall PES having much of an issue with ratings. They use a 1-10 scale but I've never actually cast a rating vote there so I don't know if they have reasons to go with them.

You could always release stuff through TESA in addition to ORE, the software there has a rating thing but I've not seen anyone actually use it. I'm not sure if it even works.

I like Nexus, except for the crap rating system. Maybe it is indeed time for them to just abandon it entirely.

Hate to say it but while I take note of 'thumbs up', I actively investigate 'thumbs down' and the reasons why a 'thumbs down' was given by reading the reasons. It is human nature, if a mod has many thumbs down we think there is a problem with it. When the 'thumbs down' system is so flawed and a route of easy abuse, it means that many an excellent mod is overlooked.

PES is a good place, has fond memories for me releasing my very first mods there. Tes Nexus is good, it just has a few things that really need addressing. TESA is very good too, not sure whether they could take such a large file, but probably.

I really think that if Nexus simply had a thumbs up system it would work better. Don't like the mod, move along. Obviously more outstanding mods would get more thumbs up, so it would serve it's purpose.

Regarding the main reason behind the rating being to give the modder feedback. It just doesn't though. Someone chooses the option 'couldn't get the mod to work'? How does that help me, it doesn't even give me the details of the problem the person was having? The other 478 downloaders obviously got it to work. Should I be penalised because one person doesn't know where to find his Data Files in vista, or can't use OBMM? For all I know the downloader didn't realize they needed Oblivion to play the mod. :shrug:

But while it is good to discuss it here the only thing that can be done is to express our concerns to the owner of the site, perhaps they will take action. Although I have already done that when the system was first implemented and nothing changed. So if they are not wanting to make changes and see no problem with the system, really the only option is to move to other hosting sites such as PES (has a 1 to 10 system) and TESA (with their system designed to protect from unfair raters), for those of us that have a problem with what we see as a very unfair rating system on Nexus,

TESA's rating system does indeed function, it's a 1-5 star system, but it's limited to VIP members, and staff only. The reason being that VIP members have a vested interest in maintaining their membership so are not likely to troll ratings for sport and staff, again, is accountable for their actions. We made this limitation to protect our hosted modders from the random thoughts of flyby users. As membership increases and more modders take advantage of our unlimited bandwidth and download speeds the rating system will see more use. :nod:

I didn't think the ratings were intended for the modder at all. I thought they were intended for other players.

Hence, "conflicts with other popular mods" is a consideration. Hopefully you will read the readme to find out which ones it conflicts with.

I agree that "doesn't suit my personal tastes" is rather stupid, and I laughed when someone claimed that Wrye Bash "did not do what it was supposed to do".

Hmm...problem is that modders will not want to upload only to be unfairly abused and as pointed out earlier raters can now 'legally' abuse in a way that would have resulted in a banning before. Perhaps priorities are incorrect, a good balance catering to both modders and downloaders would be best for all. Not a system that caters to one at the expense of the other.



Problem is the vast room for abuse. I can guarantee that people will be giving it that rating because the mod states in the readme that it conflicts with a 'popular' mod.

If it's that much of a problem, then it should become standard for modders to choose the "Don't allow endorsemants" option. If that happens, they'll eliminate the system since it will be useless.

But I think you're missing the point where we WANT constructive feedback. Turning off endorsemants only ensures we'll get none and punishes the people who DO want to rate fairly.

The Nexus rating system does need a serious overhaul. It's entirely too easy for trolls to troll and do so with sadly sanctioned troll ratings given them by the Nexus staff.

I much prefer the ratings on TESA thank you. I've no fear at all of being trolled over there and know if someone takes the time, they actually care about being constructive rather than some bubble gum chewing, pre-teen, hormonally poisoned dingbat who's bored and wants to take a pot shot just cause they can.

I honestly never thought much about it.

Does turning off endorsemants also turn off the forum based comments system?

Endorsemants really can't give you constructive criticism, the comments are necessary for that. I always just thought of endorsemants as another way to sort searches, much like download numbers.

Do endorsemants affect the Top 100 ect

I thought the mods with the most endorsemants were in that list. Also people (moi included) actively choose mods with more endorsemants, after all, endorsemants mean a better mod or so the theory goes. Turning off endorsemants will impact the mod in quite a few ways I think. People will miss some real gems because the modder felt forced to turn off endorsemants. Such a thing doesn't serve the modder or downloaders.

Every time this thread topic pops up I rarely see mod users comment near as much as mod makers.

I disagree that ratings are of any value to mod users as well.

For instance - I've got a stable game again - so it is mod testing time! I've been collecting together unique armor and weapon mods and I will merge them into two categories using Gecko .... Bought/Guild and Quest/Found.
Take these two mods:
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13591 - this has 68 thumbs up ... but reading comments it conflicts with UL Lost Coast. People have commented on this and still no thumbs down. Might use it as the conflict is underwater and ~tcl once is all that is needed.
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=8043 (sans the hash) - this has 239 thumbs up, which means nothing to me as I read the comments I see that it conflicts with the new UL Cheydinhall Falls. People have commented on this and still no thumbs down. Not going to use it.

So conflcits often have no bearing on ratings and are useless in rating the quality of the mod in and of itself.

I'm thinking that conflicts are one of the main concerns with users - even more so than content (the close second). Moving these factors off over into another category ... like 'conflict warning' ... high, med, low, none. That might make modders more comfortable. Also then overhauls would have the highest warning rating.

On the other hand - It seems there is definitely a contingent of modders who want votes. That is a personal issue if one wants votes and at the same time set the criteria for what counts as a valid vote.

I've yet to see a rating system on Nexus that works and quite frankly think it is needless. Comments without ratings is needed though.

Yep. No endorsemants means our mods never make the list, or any list, on Nexus. So, if we want more exposure, we have to 'expose' ourselves to endorsemant trolls, otherwise, it's pat anonymity for our mods no matter how good they are. Yep, the system needs tweeks.

I'll be honest, I look at the endorsemants when considering a mod.

I also make a point of looking at the reasons for the thumbs down ones, and discount any that say "couldn't get the mod to work" or "didn't suit my tastes" or "I have moral objections" or whatever that last one was.

The conflict one does make me look for a conflict list though.

That file 'doesn't suit one person's beliefs or taste'. lol

If I uploaded 'Shezrie's Towns' with 'conflicts with Lost Spires' in the description and readme, 'thumbs down' galore would occur. I already got vituperative comments a while back in WIP threads here because of the conflict, which shows the anger that people can have because they don't get what they want. On Nexus they have a pretty solid, 'legal' way to get back at the author for the sheer impertinance of conflicting. Given that without a patch Lost Spires is unusable with my mod, not a little conflict that can be overcome, the complaints and downratings would come in a flood, of that I am positive.

Sorry but I do not care about compatibility. I CANNOT care about compatibility and it is unfair to expect me to or to rate my mod on capatibility. Especially when at this stage in modding pretty much everything conflicts. Like I said before worrying about compatibility would make my hobby a job and really svck the fun and creativity out of modding. If others want to make patches for various mods and mine, great. Otherwise... :shrug:

I do agree that ratings as a whole are not really needed.

How would people feel about a "thumbs up" only system.

The more endorsemants you get, the more you rank on the lists, but there are no negative rankings to allow problem users to vent on you.

Honestly, the negative endorsemant are pretty useless to everyone. The only thing they can do sometimes is encourage me to read the comments to check on the status of conflicts.

Hmm....I always have trouble even giving new versions to testers...because I KNOW there?s still problems, but I would like them to evaluate the mod CONSIDERING there?s still those problems...


I think that kinda sums up the whole conflict between users and modders, users tend to treat each mod as any mod and move on to the next one, while for the modder his mod is very special and needs to be spoken about in appropriate context. Even with finished mods, there IS always that special something involved when you are working on the mod, or how you imagine it being played.

I don?t think any system ever properly fits both user?s want to express their feelings towards a mod, and the modder?s expectations on how their mod should be experienced. My English fails to express this better than this.

Agreed Skycaptain.

Showler and Meek - that is what I mean. Make it so that conflcit status can be noted but not part of the rating for the mod - a separate rating that has no effect on charts and competition.

Oh and btw - I would never rate a mod I never used and actually come to think of it I would never rate a mod.

I'd endorse it on forums though. Skycaptins NPCs jump is pretty cool. No more perching on rocks with my Duke Patrick archery picking off NPCs who are a mere 5 feet below.