I'll be honest, Im not gonna read such a loooooooong statement based on a game that is not released. However you want to say features have been confirmed, it is still a game that has not been released. Never, never ever ever, is a preview going to be a substitute for actually playing a game.

I fail to see the lack of choices or consequences...

Can't you still train in bows and neglect magic? Or it only matters if you can do it at the beginning?

Wrong, the game shouldn't punish me based on what choices I make, that is a flaw in the Attributes system that Oblivion used, they interfered too much with leveling. Look at Fallout 3's attributes did they contribute to leveling or how much damage they did, no they didn't and that system worked great (Outside of Softworks being dumb with Broken Steel but that's not the point). With Skyrim I won't need to worry about Strength because it's gone the weapon skills (One Handed, Two Handed, Archery, Destruction) will replace it and that's how it should've been in the 1st place.

Ah, "more efficiently". Why does this argument always come up? Answer: Because some people have the confused belief that efficiency is actually something good. It isn't. Efficiently is good for min/maxing, but that's all.



False. I can pretend to be, but the game won't know the difference at all. It is of no consequence whatsoever, and so I just as well might not do it.... that would be perfectly in line with your callling for playing more efficiently.



So what you say is that because you didn't care, others shouldn't either?

I quote from the post I replied to "If I neglect Strength my characters going to svck in 20 levels, that's not how it should be. " Yes, it is. If you neglect strength, your character will be bad at physical things, and that's how it should be. Choices and consequences.
And it's telling that you pick alternatives that are still in the game. How about training in swords but neglecting maces?
And as for doing something at the beginning, you definitely should have a solid foundation in some things at the beginning. The "be what you do" is a nice idea, but it neglects that most things take a longer timeframe to learn than the timeframe of the game, and that if you don't have a solid foundation to build on, you'll be going nowhere with "on the job" training.

You could play as a linguist in Daggerfall... technically.

You couldn't do anything worthwhile if you did though.
You couldn't actually talk to the enemies, or could you offer your services to somebody, or read ancient hieroglyphics to find secret treasures...


Why not?
Look up your speechcraft skill and the game can determine how your social life is...

Yes, the game should punish you. If you decide your character should be a whimp, he should very well get beaten up repeatedly and find out that nature isn't for sissies.



For someone who is solely concerned about maximum combat effectiveness, maybe. For someone interested in creating a character and letting him loose onto a living world, hardly.

So basically you would have no problem with Oblivion's horrible attribute system being in Skyrim. That would be a huge problem, and another thing if I want to specialize in Blade I shouldn't need to train Hand To hand or Blunt just to keep my strength attribute from being hurt, another problem of the Oblivion system that I want no where near Skyrim.

Here's the crunch of the problem.

TES was never about this...

TES was always about evolution, starting out with something and becoming something different.
It always tried to stay away from one problems of some RPGs, getting stuck and punished because of bad choices right at the beginning.
You need some magic to get past this point? You can learn magic! You always could, ever since Daggerfall!
If I'm punished by trying to play the character I created, how is that a valid choice?

And yet that's exactly what role playing is about. If you screw over an npc in one quest and then come ask for his help in a later quest, he will refuse. Those are actions that define your character and determine how the world interacts with your character. Without those consequences you would have total freedom, but your character would be bland.

That is a good point and with Skyrim all of us will start the same with minor changes due to race which isn't great but the ending is going to be much different. Come a week after 11-11-11 and I'll count 20 random users, all 20 of their characters will be different, some will be the same like 7 of them will be thief type characters but they won't have the same perks. One of them could've focused on Blocking Perks, or Restoration Perks, Destruction Perks, etc. That is going to be the beauty of Skyrim, how our characters will end up at the end.

I believe it can with mods, but the problem (as I see it), is that as for the base retail game... not every player the want to sell to understands (or prefers) the notion of a character's personal ability... Some consider the PC to be themselves in the world, and the concept of dice {specifically a failed dice roll}, is seen as oddly arbitrary and even resented by some when it happens. How many times have you read posts exclaiming "I shot him in the head X number of times and he didn't die!" ~when we both know that the weapon aiming [in the Fallout series] is controlled by the character's ability to use use the weapon; and the bullet's variable damage (in FO1&2) reflects a further layer of accuracy (and differentiates a headshot to the face, from one to the ear cartilage ~for instance). Even in FO3 the player's aim is actually attenuated by the characters skill in guns, but they assume its wherever they point; In actuality player aiming (with the mouse) is just an overly complicated way of selecting a target for the PC to shoot at.

**Personally, this awkward artifact of FPP/RPG is why I'd prefer it to be TPP at about 20' distant or more, because those minor details (that nag at the player's common sense) don't show up at that distance ~You can't see that the PC shot precisely to their face (and they didn't die). A low roll (if the new system had worked like that) would have just meant they didn't quite hit it dead center.

The real benefit of Numeric and Perks systems is to easily depict the intangible and/or unusual character traits. In Fallout most perks were used to bend the rules a bit. In Fallout 3 perks were [IMO] misunderstood to be abilities; and this lead (I think) to them finally just becoming the 'skills' in their next game.

I have no problem with that but what I don't like is being forced to develop my charcter in a specific way just to stay competitive, I shoudn't need to Train Blunt and Hand To Hand if I'm a Blade Specialist just to be able to surivive against other enemies. Skyrim fixes that problem for the better.

I did read and was happy to see (although not my own) a reasonable explained thought, bu...t the stats, birth-sign, and classes seemed more like bricks for a foundation rather than sand, the were forced and could be contradictory(for me at least) I had to be smart to be good with Majicka, i had to be strong to be good at a blade. I had to be likeable to be a smooth talker (speed being cut was something i didn't like, I miss hand to hand too but i think the didn't add because to make realistic the animations would take up all there time.) No longer bound by preset back story. No longer bound by preset ability(i just say that years in jail made my skill drop, but i am still an Orc(or whatever race or races you are)). No longer bound by preset morality you are who ever you be it chaotic good Nord, or a mentally handicapped half Orc half Nord with split personality that believes himself an evil master mind and is strongly pragmatic.

That I agree with. Oblivion's leveling system was terrible. It was either power leveling or being weak, with not much in between. I don't think anyone wants to do that again.

Of course it should ~If they warrant it; It should also reward for [some] choices as well... That's a staple in RPGs dating all the way back.

If you (for example) bolster diplomatic skills to the near max early on in the game, and find an encounter with a bear or lion.. you should not be able to talk your way out of it; and you [rightly] might not have the combat skills to defend against it... The choice not to travel with a good fighter when playing this PC, has its consequence, and I see nothing wrong with that. :shrug:

I cannot ignore that to get skilled with a warhammer, mace, or an axe one must be able to lift it and put power behind it... No amount of technical skill will get you around this (and you can't get that skill without sufficient strength to train with it). The same should be so with armor. IMO wearing armor that puts you close to the max carry weight should additionally penalize Balance, Stamina, and even attack damage with weapons... and preferably penalize accuracy with those weapons, though TES relies on player aim.

Getting stuck and getting punished are two entirely different things. If you've created a thief and run charging into a group of Ogrim, you will get punished. That's doesn't mean that thief is not a valid choice. Rather, the approach is not reasonable for a thief. Try a different one. If you created a mage but decide to join a guild of swordfighters, you shouldn't be surprised that you don't get that far in the guild. If your training focussed on non-physical activities, why should you? Join a group of scholars instead and you will be much more successful. If you insist on proceeding with the swordfighters, it will be that much more hard work for you, and plenty of bruises to get there.

Evolution is all good and fine, but it comes with blood, sweat and tears. Anything else isn't evolution, it's arbitrariness. It's being everything to everyone, which usually amounts to being nothing really.

My response is in Bold

It "fixes" that by removing specialized training, replacing it instead with periodical heavenly enlightenment....

So, the games not a realistic world where you need to have strength in order to actually pick up a sword. If that were the case none of the female characters in the game could pick up a 100 Pound Daedric Warhammer and swing it around at any point.

That's true [Its a game]... but its been the apparent goal of TES to be as realistic as possible (within the context). They really are trying to create a simulated Tamriel that hopefully draws the player in in the way that great novel can [in terms of experiencing it].

So I'll be surprised, if they choose the route of "Its just a Game" with their design decisions. :shrug:

The distinction between realistic and credible seems lost to you...

I don't know about you but I see nothing wrong with what Skyrim's doing. Maybe I wasn't around during the Daggerfall-Morrowind years but I don't want that coming back. I want a game that is fun but still a challenge and most importantly an RPG with huge amount of customizable options and not being tied down by the developers. Skyrim accomplishes all of that and I can't wait for it to come out.

If you weren't around for the Daggerfall-Morrwind years how do you know you don't want that coming back? If anything customization has been lowered since those progenitors and people are being tied down by the developers constantly. There is no net gain in what has been added compared to what has been lost and all of this has been done simply for "ease of development". F@nboys are simply too blind and ignorant to see it. I am all for the evolution of a game but the consistent attitude of completely ignoring one sect of the fanbase over others for simple things that could be added is downright shameful.. especially since everything that has been added is nothing but a money grab.

The only thing that's a money grab is the collectors edition. Anyway the stuff from the past that Morrowind had and Daggerfall too is something that I don't want in Skyrim. I don't want that Attribute system in Skyrim, it's was a mess, they interfered too much with leveling. Levitation is also a problem, it's severely broken and I don't know why people want it back in all the spell was is a huge exploit, "I'll hop over this level 50 guy so that I can get this really awesome sword that makes my character god for the next 30 levels", I don't want that in Skyrim, that's terrible for game balance.