TES's weird armor system : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:43 am

Long time since I have posted here, but I recently thought of one thing in TES that is badly done. That is the armor system, not only are the names wrong, it also doesn't make sense.
We have the division between "heavy" and "light" armor, previously also medium armor. And think about this a little: the cheapest heavy armor you can find is a full plate suit, and it's very cheap. It's a full plate armor, making i out of some indestructible fantasy material is the only thing that can make it better, and that's how it's done. Light armor makes little sense, too, actually it only makes sense in the early levels. But then, look at this guy http://newwars.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/ancient_sasanid_cataphract_uther_oxford_2003_06_21.jpg that is a reconstruction of a cataphract, the stuff he is wearing would be called "light armor" in TES, and that's just stupid. Chainmail is heavier than full plate, just less restricting.
The division between the armor types, another thing is balance. In real life, heavy armor was EXPENSIVE, only the elite could afford full armor suits. But in TES you can just crawl out of the prison and buy yourself one. And that's why I think the current armor system should be abolished. When we have light and heavy armor skills, the classes need to be balanced, meaning we will have ridiculously cheap heavy armor and super-protective armor that weighs nothing(OK, because it's a fantasy world the super light armor is no problem).

Here's what I think of it: Instead of having equipment from 2(or 3) classes, there is only weight and how restrictive armor is. Because armor skill doesn't make sense in the first place, agility and athletics should be what makes armor movement more easy. That would be great for roleplay, you have the choice of what to do based on what you need. A normal adventurer wouldn't need more than a chest armor and some good boots, maybe. But if you want to be a tank warrior, you can get yourself some fully covering heavy armor. The current system makes it so that it's no good option not to use armor, and i you do, you better carry a full suit, just minimal penalties!

Also, there are minor things like armor naming that are off, it doesn't matter, but there's no reason not to fix it. A cuirass is a hard briastplate, greaves are armor for the lower legs, the "greaves" in TES are really chausses.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:50 pm

Good points, especially about the chausses. Who knows why they're keeping the misnamed, but they sure can change it. Yay for no armor skill!

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:17 pm

my beef with the armor system was, at least in oblivion, criminals and civilians often had better armor and weapons than guards did. if you played vanilla oblivion all of a sudden bandits are wearing full glass and daedric sets while the guards still had their steel crap. how exactly did the empire conquer everyone with steel weapons and armor with low armor ratings. the elves must have really svcked cause their armor and weapons are much stronger than the typical imperial soldiers gear.

i would also like a unified armor skill. however i think there should be much stronger differences between heavy and light armor. heavy armor should make you lose endurance faster, reduce sneak ability, severely restrict magic use (dont get me started on oblivions magic system) and perhaps impair swimming like in two worlds. light armor should provide substantially less protection, however less taxing on sneak ability, endurance and magic use. morrowind and oblivion do this to some extent but it doesnt feel dramatically different when wearing heavy vs light armor. i also agree about no penalties when you get to high skill level. being a master should have no effect on how much the armor ways. it simple might allow you to move better in it or lessen the endurance drain.

id also like a change to the current amor repair system. walking around with hammers and fixing up an expensive suit of glass armor (how exactly do you bang glass back into shape) seems a little simplistic to me. FWE, a mod for fallout 3 had armor repair kits that you could make out of various ingame objects. that system made alot more sense since you actually had to find materials and then use tool kits for the job.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:43 pm

it makes sense. not everyone should need full armour. i know TES is based on fantasy but hisorically few people wore full armour. it was expensive, so what's the point of buying a very expensive piece of plate foot armour when the chances of you being struck there are minimal and none fatal?

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:05 pm

Nice way to use your brains. I agree mostly.
My point being: anyone can put on extremely heavy armor, but a newb1e or a weakling can be easily kicked out of balance, and that helmet WILL be hacked in when you're helpless in the ground. Arrows should either bounce off or penetrate the armor. When hitting chain, they could make blunt damage without penetrating.
Heavy armor to be more rare and costly, to hinder your movement speed greatly, and to ruin almost every attempt of sneaking silently.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:25 am

Nice way to use your brains. I agree mostly.
My point being: anyone can put on extremely heavy armor, but a newb1e or a weakling can be easily kicked out of balance, and that helmet WILL be hacked in when you're helpless in the ground. Arrows should either bounce off or penetrate the armor. When hitting chain, they could make blunt damage without penetrating.
Heavy armor to be more rare and costly, to hinder your movement speed greatly, and to ruin almost every attempt of sneaking silently.

It would help in that accord if every weapon had three damage percentages. Piercing, cutting, and blunt. Arrows would have more piercing than anything, but they would have some blunt damage and a little cutting damage, especially when they're removed. A http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Boeheim_Morgenstern_01.jpg would have a good piercing and blunt, but little slashing. Swords depending on the type would have good slashing, but only some blunt and low piercing unless you are stabbing with it.

I've been thinking that the cost of the weapons and armor should depend on the amount of metal you use. Labor was cheap back in the day, and it was the materials that were expensive. So, a wooden mace with metal spikes is fairly cheap, an axe is a medium expense, and a sword is freaking expensive. To this end, they need to equip the armies accordingly. It was good that the guards generally wore chainmail in Oblivion, full plate Iron should be much more expensive.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:39 am

The odd decision to include shin guards (REAL greaves) as part of your boots, and call the chausses or cuisses over your thighs "greaves", still makes me wonder about what they were thinking (or smoking) at the time. Looking at anything from early Greek or other armor from antiquity through the Medieval period, "Greaves" always covered your shins, not your thighs.

At least it's not as bad as one system I vaguely recall, which called the vambraces over your forearms "arm greaves". That's like calling a pair of shoes "foot gloves", and sounds pretty stupid to anyone more familiar with naming conventions for armor (which I would assume that any "adventurer" in a sword-wielding fantasy world would be). Shortening the term to "bracers" is acceptable.

I'd much rather see the artificial distinction between Heavy and Light armor go away, and a choice between different balances of protective strength, durability, weight, and repairability be used in its place.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:27 pm

Interesting discussion. A dynamic, multi-faceted armour system would be a great addition to roleplaying the game too - much more variety in play styles. However, it would mean more armour types - easy enough to do if we include the armours from Morrowind. Inclusion of these would mean the player could progress up the scale (excuse the pun!) of better armour based on (say) how much money they had and whether their respective armour skill allowed them to wear that type of armour. This would mean you can't necessarily buy a set of plate 'off the rack' as a newbie straight out of the sewers, unless you were, for example, a Nord or Orc with Heavy Armour as a major. In saying that though, I do tend to agree with the combination of the light/heavy armour skills into one.......

One thing I have mentioned before, and it has been touched on here is the type of weapon vs type of armour scenario where (say) chain armour protects better vs blades than blunts (true blunts, not axes), and plate protects better vs blunts than blades.

So you pick your best weapon for each individual encounter, just like you would choose a frost damage spell vs a creature with a weakness to frost.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:27 am

I agree with all of this. You should also put it in the ideas and suggestions thread so it's more likely a dev will see it.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:58 pm

I agree. All weapons should have 3 damage stats (example):
Elven Sword
Slashing - 20
Blunt - 5
Piercing - 7
Total - 32

All armor should then have 3 defensive stats (example):
Steel Plate
Slashing - 40%
Blunt - 25%
Piercing - 10%

Thus attacking the Steel Plate with the Elven sword would use this formula (modified by other stats) for each damage type:
(base damage) - (base damage * defense %)

This would yield the following damage:
Slashing 20 - (20 *.4) = 12
Blunt 5 - (5 * .25) = 3.75
Piercing 7 - (7 * .1) = 6.3
Total = 22

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:20 pm

Nice to hear that, at first I was in doubt if it was a good idea, right now I can't come up with a way it could be done, help?
Maybe by giving each armor piece a set of stats, like previously suggested. Weight, mobility, protection vs different things, etc.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:29 pm

Nice to hear that, at first I was in doubt if it was a good idea, right now I can't come up with a way it could be done, help?
Maybe by giving each armor piece a set of stats, like previously suggested. Weight, mobility, protection vs different things, etc.

I've got a few things here that could go into armor stats:

Durability
Enchantability
Agility
Speed
Endurance
Climbing
Athletics
Acrobatics
Theft
Slashing resistance
Piercing resistance
Blunt resistance
Fluting
Repairability
Frost protection
Fire protection
Lightning protection
Spell resistance
Joint protection
Sound
Shine
Attractiveness
Value
Weight

So as an example, let's apply this list to a standard suit of dark brown cow leather armor, with values of 1-10.

Weather Durability 5
Enchantability 1
Agility -.5
Speed -.5
Endurance -.5
Climbing -.5
Athletics -.5
Acrobatics -.5
Theft 0
Slashing resistance 2
Piercing resistance 1
Blunt resistance 3
Fluting NA
Repairability 10 (Easy to repair and find replacement parts for)
Frost protection 7
Fire protection 4
Lightning protection 4
Spell resistance 1
Joint protection 2
Sound .5
Shine 0
Attractiveness 2 (Increases with dying or good repair, decreases with wear)
Value 1

Now with that example, I'll do one more to illustrate. This will be for Dwarven.

Weather durability 6
Enchantability 7
Agility -6
Speed -4
Endurance -4
Climbing -5
Athletics -4
Acrobatics -6
Theft -5
Slashing resistance 8
Piercing resistance 6
Blunt resistance 5
Fluting NA
Repairability 4 (Harder to repair and find replacement parts for)
Frost protection 2
Fire protection 10
Lightning protection 2
Spell resistance 2
Joint protection 7
Sound 6
Shine 4
Attractiveness 8
Value 8

With the Leather, it barely detracts from your skills and attributes at all while it gives decent elemental protection and basic bodily protection. Dwarven is great for fire protection, joint protection, and is fairly enchantable.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:27 am

"the cheapest heavy armor you can find is a full plate suit, and it's very cheap. It's a full plate armor, making i out of some indestructible fantasy material is the only thing that can make it better, and that's how it's done."

:rofl:
What?! Steel and Iron armor are "Fantasy Material"?
What on Earth are you talking about?

You read him very very wrong.
He said "its a full plate armor, making it out of some indestructible fantasy material is the only thing that can make it better, and that's how it's done." He means that steel is the best plate armor in the game that is actually real. Every material that goes into plate past that is fantasy material. I.E Dwemer, Daedric, Ebony, etc.

Basically, he's pointing out the break in logic that steel is somehow extremely weak, when in real life it was the most powerful material one could hope to get their hands on. Having it on made you a man-tank. The in-game logic of armor makes it so that steel is somehow incredibly weak, when it really should be very very strong.

Essentially, logic doesn't seem to have a place in the armor system of TES, when the OP believes it should.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:50 pm

I would have been happy with more armour types period. Wooden, bone, chitin, variants too - like hardend leather, studded leather, different lengths and fits.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:00 pm

I agree with the OP 100%

Besides that I don't have much to add to this thread.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:51 am

A lot of posts that were gratuitous, unwarranted, and unconstructive criticism of the OP's posting style, rather than a decent and orderly exchange of ideas on the topic, have been trashed. Don't repeat it. The moderators will suspend members if necessary to maintain order.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:06 pm

Pretty much as others have said, it's preferable to current systems. My own idea for it is fairly close. Additionally, different materials could have extra effects other than just "better defense" to further improve variety. A cuirass made from really flexible leather might be easier to move around in, while one made from ogre hide would be stiffer but have higher pierce resistance.

I've got a few things here that could go into armor stats:

And to preempt any complains of it being too much of a text wall, it would be really easy to include one of those "expand window" buttons in the corner while looking at the item, so that the more common/immediately relevant stats like weight, encumbrance, resistances, etc are visible, and you can show/hide the rest at will.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:03 am

one thing i tried and it actually worked nicely ingame was i evened out all the weapon stats so that they only had very minor differences. basically they all did the same damage but i made glass a big sharper but less reliable and daedric and ebony i made very durable but really heavy. getting hit with a steel or iron weapon is going to kill you just like in real life. then like a butt nugget i deleted it when i mod cleaning. :banghead: it was nice cause it basically made the difference between the weapons more cosmetic than anything else. imperial soldiers could now walk around with pride knowing they had swords that actually hurt.

right now im using TIE which is pretty good since it makes iron and steel weapons really powerful. im to lazy to redo all those stats..........back ups..........must remember backups.

it would be awesome if the differences in armor were mostly enchantments or comsetic instead of huge differences in defense.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:18 pm

If all weapons and armor have slash, blunt, and piercing scores; then I want to waer a chainmail shirt under my plate armor! Tank style characters need to resist all non-magical damage!

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:12 pm

If all weapons and armor have slash, blunt, and piercing scores; then I want to waer a chainmail shirt under my plate armor! Tank style characters need to resist all non-magical damage!

Good luck fighting on foot in that

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:24 pm

And to preempt any complains of it being too much of a text wall, it would be really easy to include one of those "expand window" buttons in the corner while looking at the item, so that the more common/immediately relevant stats like weight, encumbrance, resistances, etc are visible, and you can show/hide the rest at will.

Yeah, yeah, easy. How do you do that again?

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:12 pm

Yeah, yeah, easy. How do you do that again?

FWE does that in fallout 3. you hit a hotkey and it shows you all the various stats for the weapon you have selected at the time. there is also a mod for oblivion that ive seen on the forums that shows you all the stats of weapons and armor.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:35 am

FWE does that in fallout 3. you hit a hotkey and it shows you all the various stats for the weapon you have selected at the time. there is also a mod for oblivion that ive seen on the forums that shows you all the stats of weapons and armor.

Oh, my bad, I didn't know he meant in game. I thought he was saying my post was too long, and there was a command in the edit bar that would let me shorten it up or expand. I've been looking at the screen for ten minutes trying to figure it out.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:51 pm

Good luck fighting on foot in that

That would be another downside to the tanks... relatively immobile (also relatively invincible!)

Would make horses waaaay more useful/valuable to many characters for just getting around. Also might encourage a set of "casual" clothes to wear when around town and what not.

» Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:40 pm

Certain elements are indeed strange, but are video games supposed to resemble real life or are video games video games? If video games are video games, and not representations of real life, then the armor system in TES makes sense -- it is in keeping with many of the basic rules of the format. While Beth is revolutionary in many ways, the price of the revolution you are suggesting is likely too high to pay.